Asset TV Live & in Person | Bristol

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  • 35 mins 51 secs

Is the UK equity market unloved for a reason or does it represent great value? Is a Corbyn government a greater threat to the markets than the uncertainties of Brexit? Three of Bristol’s top fund buyers discuss the issues facing them and their clients. Taking part are:

  • Mark Dampier, Head of Research, Hargreaves Lansdown
  • Simon Temple-Pedersen, Head of Bristol office, JM Finn
  • Gavin Haynes, Managing Director, Whitechurch Securities


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Hello and welcome to asset tv's live and in person with me. Marco, get in this edition. We are in bristol talking to some top fund byers what's going on in the markets. What does it all mean for clients on for their portfolios ? Let's, meet our panellists. They are marked dampier. He is head of research at hargreaves lansdown. Simon temple peterson, head of the bristol officer jam fun and gavin haynes, managing director at white church security general, thanks very much for being able to join us. Start with you seem to be a lot of politics out there in markets. The moment is there more than ever before or same mo, same as ever. Actually, i think on unbelievable mountain that i had a breakfast meeting which was full on an hour and a half of more or less politics, which are just not used to it all. So my thirty five years, i cannot remember politics being such a big part of what's going on today we've had changes of governments. We had blair years, all that sort of thing. But none of it is a zit is today basically in the u k we've got brexit and we've got potential labour government in due course whenever we have an election and we have a very different kind of labour party and i don't think a lot of people, of course up with how left wing we're talking about and i'm not even saying going back to the nineteen seventies, there nowhere in the seventies was anything like his left wing, as we have now, given that backdrop, do you have to become an expert on politics rather than markets when you too, but i'm not sure about that, but a cz mark says, you know, if you think most of the younger voters who were all rushing for corbin a bribe on on fees for university, they won't remember any of the three day week or or what happened under a socialist government that does make it worrying. It really does, because with the tourists putting themselves apart, it's a difficult time in politics and given beyond when you stop to think through what that means investment terms have you had a chance to think through what the short, medium and long term consequences of this, all of it, i just think it's totally unpredictable. And i think brexit provided a very good wake up call that you could manage money is based on probabilities and keep your investments in place, and then you get completely unexpected outcome, i think second and then no, trump followed soon after that again, completely unexpected, turning things upside down. I think the key is just doing manage portfolios using diversification, balancing risks on both sides, but trying to second guess it is completely futile. And actually, if i'm honest, we spent more time looking at central bankers. When we do politicians, they're slightly more predictable when we think interest rate policies really a probably going to be there. One of the key determinant and interest rates staying low is perhaps more important than all the thunder noise that continues to go on around it, which you have to manage the risks that you can't predict. But i mean that that point on diversification, i mean part of that is where you allocate your assets. So at the moment would you suggest clients put more in the uk uk market ? Ok, cheap for a reason so i think actually the most difficult time i think i've known in my thirty five years in a last specks i've never seen, i don't think i've ever seen the uk. These are popular for obvious reasons for it, so asset allocation, i think, is absolute killer guess i'm going to say i agree with gavin in a way that you can't guess all this stuff going on, and so you end up having a kind of really boring for viewers and inclines, but you just said we'll have a bit there in a bit there in a bit there because what else can you really do unless you try and second guess it well, we're not going to get a deal, you k is going to hell in the heart, so we don't have anything in the uk and if we have it all in the states or whatever ? Well it's, no it's a binary kind of not really what what, what you want. So i think it's particularly tough. I have to say that i'll be stubborn and say that i kind of like the u k because it's unfashionable is unloved and unwanted and those kind of traits just drive me to think andl the client's pretty much don't like it and that kind of brings big back to thinking i quite like the uk or that sort of basis, but i could be spectacularly wrong with that, but it's unloved and people don't want it. So in a way, that's potentially more upside if we get a some kind of deal on brexit or whatever, i'm presuming at the moment that there's no election, by the way because i think i think as much as brexit, so worry i've got to say a labour government this time around is much more horrific for investors, whatever your politics are sorry, but this is a hard left government, and we saw it brilliantly this week at the conference when i think this certain moments that you see in time, i remember brown getting up and saying that that buoyed, abolished, boom bust and i thought these great intellect, my god, he doesn't understand stock markets on economic cycles, so i thought that was a big thing. Well, well, labor getting up and saying they're basically gonna nationalize ten percent of all the public cos i thought, well, suggesting that one percent is a very, very small amount each year yeah, yeah. Just put the counter argument everyone for the last decade of sat around and said, all this gray inequality, we must do something whilst cheerfully not doing anything about it. Someone stood up. What it's all about it's, not about people salaries is about assets. Why don't we make sure that the workers have got a chunk of that dividend income ? Then if you want to pay it out as dividends, they get something you try to take that money and invest in the business for our jobs. But that's, you know, that's fine, but it wasn't actually you've got a call. What ? What ? He wanted everyone to think that you didn't really quite saying that, first of all, the limited you two, five hundred pounds. Okay then he said, well, the rest comes to us, the government so in fact it was a part nationalisation on can you think, of example, in another country where redistribution of wealth in that way has worked delegates most notorious as well ? Because they don't seem to be making any view on business and attracting companies ? Post brexit, you want a much more open economy on dh labours plans suggested. Meanwhile, the multinationals will surely go. Go move their operations offshore. Why would anyone i po ? If you knew that ten percent of your company was going to be confiscated, how is that business friendly ? When i want to attract people in in a globalized world capital, would you disappear out ? So labour government almost certainly within a few weeks have to bring in exchange controls. I remember them because he honks his way. All these lovely young says you wanna vote for corbin, who loved traveling ? Well, guys, i was limited to thirty panels that you could take after the country pre nineteen. Nineteen, seventy nine how does that fit into your global span of life or whatever ? Just just bringing it back to portfolio management ? Certainly. Korben, korben risk factor is key strategies way have called in risk portfolio in place, but i think you have to be negligent not to on of course, that i guess you can't predict we talk to her not predicting, but he would expect a run on sterling based on some of the policies he said so again, overseas assets and see areas such as utilities, real states would come under fire. So it is. Important for us to have those contingency plans in place and you can't wait till after a general election to make things move, by the way, i never thought i would say discussion, why don't we start by talking about donald trump ? But simon, we have him there's president states talking about trade wars with china, he is a politician that's very unusual. If he says he wants to do something, he doesn't have a pretty good stab trying to do it which is shocking on has thrown everybody. What do you think the investment indications are what what's happening ? The particular china it is extraordinary, he will either be history will view as the best president america had all the worst. It'll be smooth but in a way he's talking about a lot of the right things on defense. Why should america pay you four times what germany is paying to defend the world on trade ? Why should german cars go into the us for not very much ? Us cars get tax a lot in the german market, so he is talking about the right things is just the way he talks about them on the rhetoric, a narrative. That he uses, which is so unusual. But this the way china sort of works works out the loss of face issue in china is always the difficult one foot for him to get around pushing as hard as he is that's unlikely teo get the outcome that he wants, but it will be fascinating to see how it how it turns out on dh how the world views views it do you think with what's going on between trump on china at the moment that's someone's pushed a very big button that says investment risk it's definitely a risk trade wars ? No, no, there are no winners in trade war sets and it potentially could thie economic growth of the two major powers that's that's bad for everyone, whether it's just talk, whether it's a beretta it's probably the likelihood is it everyone's interest that it is. But you just don't know with trump, tio but i don't think it's it has to be seen. I think i think one of the more dangerous aspect is having put his his new chairman of the federal reserve in in place. He's not criticizing him, but what is the poor man's ? Supposed to do when when he inflicts that these incredible tax stimulus onto the economy at a point that it didn't need and then has inflationary trade war where the government loves to take the tariff and prices will rise, what else can the federal reserve to you but to put up into interest rates ? And i think it's, that potential of us going back to boom and bust, which is proper, possibly more of a threat from the trade war ? Simon said, stimulating the economy through text cuts that was already close toe potentially overheating. Now we could see the u s it's a recession in austin because because think trump's onto a thing in terms of the chinese don't play fair, i really don't i'm not well, okay, but they particularly have been in terms of intellectual property the way they really, really follow the wto's rules american century well, okay, but but but the china but the chinese but you can't blame trump, his actions make sure they're the right actions because i think the chinese won't play. I think i think simon said that they want they don't admit loss of face, they're not going to. Just cave in on bacon, attack the americans. Okay ? They can't do a tick for tack quite the same way. But they can make life very difficult for american companies. Sir, i think it's it's kind of a it's dangerous b i worry maura's much, but that china is just the sheer amount of debt of private debt which i think is underestimated everywhere. Well, certainly places like australia career canada and china's got a debt, mountainous. Haven't anything in all the shadow banking and really the history of the world tells you that actually, when it gets the sort of levels that china has got to there's a problem now the big thing is to the chinese because it's an authoritarian regime so they've managed to knock out the market forces that would normally be there. I don't know, but we are talking about second largest economy in the world. But we worry about america being overcooked and stock market going up. But on one of these do you think that one of the stories the last ten years has been central banks have suddenly realized how much power they have, and they keep everything flowing from not longer. They could keep it going for longer, but actually they get themselves into a mess eventually and you might be seeing that mess way online quantity tightening. We've never seen quantity of easing, and i think the effects of it not quite as strong as the potential effects of off the reverse happening. What happens next ? No one knows we've never been here before and you know, whatever normalized interest rates are, by the way, but central banks have got themselves a bit trapped because even if inflation starts to take off, i'm not sure it will. But if it did, how do they get rates up in my day anyway ? You'd expect interest rates to be a couple of percent above inflation, right ? Well, can you imagine the uk call us two percent would have four percent rate ? Can you imagine four percent rates today ? What would what would what would happen if the risk isn't it ? I'm picking up gary's point earlier about about the u s a t least they are going song way down that road of normalizing radio they've got something in their armory to cut when there where else has i don't think anywhere. Else is anywhere near the position of the americans started the whole thing much thought the europeans, of course, never took the pain probably, which is why they way way behind. We're sort of sort of followed the states we fix up back, i mean, but the banks in the in in the europol, anywhere near fixed if we just finished this bit around the states and emerging markets. Gavin, given what we said in emerging markets, had a bit of a tough time in asia pacific recently. Do you think that there's value their inequities or is that about catching a falling knife right now ? I think in the short term it might be catching a falling knife, but they're in their market territory there for twenty percent benchmark since beginning of january. Anyone who's investing in these areas has to be taking a long term view. Evaluations looked pretty reasonable that we can continue to talk about risks and it'll all day, but i think for people who look, you have a long term perspective. They provide the greatest level of growth of improving corporate governance there's such a void, it's such a void spectrum of differing economies for good fund managers in these markets carries on pushing interest think about how much pain they i i would have argued that actually the fed won't raise next year because i think that while they didn't rise obviously a few days ago and they'll do right and they'll probably have another one before the end of the year, i wonder who he was three times, he said three times, but i just wonder whether they will do that because despite all the things attacks from the americans, the americans is the only area which is actually showing any kind of growth on needs the rest of the world, europeans that look that great china's probably having tio go back to trying to push its economy further as well, so it might just struggle. So i'm not sure the federal raise so that might be good for emerging markets in due course, i just it doesn't feel to me that anything is particularly fantastically cheap. That's the part that's the problem after ten years of curie and whatever pushing ass itself, everything feels like that's. Why i say allocation to death it is suffer them before because even the low risk areas like bonds ? Well, are they really that low risk ? But is that guy for the federal reserve settle this years ago ? The dollars are currency. But your problem on its how that plays plays out, but at least emerging markets used to dealing with inflation. You know, they they operate well in that in that environment. But it does feel a cz gavin was saying it's, still a tough market. What about the us equity market ? Because that's had a phenomenal, phenomenal run. If you if you include all the text, all the stuff is done well, you strip that out. It's a negative territory, i think for the year to date, but it's very difficult thinking that anything but these tech stocks continue to rise because if you take some apple in nineteen ninety nine, it was on a three figure p it's now, in about twelve times or something and growing its earnings incredibly so you wonder quite what's going to stop these companies continuing to grow. I think the more faddish areas around the fringe will will struggle harder, but these are not proper businesses. You don't like a different thing waking not making money. Or investing to make more money in the future. And actually, when you look at the cloud by stuff, whatever this is actually they know you could argue they're not as expensive as some might say on what's interesting is that everything else has been somewhat left behind them because actually assignment with the s and p i think he's only up five percent on a year based not a year today for a whole year, which isn't much, i think the footsies up three percent, and everyone says america's powered away. Well, it is only a few stocks that have really push it up, so i think that's kind of any addressing staff because everyone thinks america's unbelievably expensive cape and everything else. But if you look underneath there's like lots of areas, the market that haven't actually moved, but you weren't all these big stalks, gavin, that done so well that i almost feel like the old companies in the nineteenth century. At some point, the government will get stuck in and say, guys, you've been collecting data all sorts, you can have a nice business, but you're too big and you too powerful, and we're gonna try. Regulations, you gotta be a key threat to these businesses again. They may also powerful in terms of a politician to step in and just thank you. So so i do. I think that is that is affecting the biggest agent, that some kind of regulation politics. And look, what happened with facebook is actually sentiment in terms of clients customers of these cos content on really six, but so you think they're wonderful one moment and then the clients go hang on. This is there near monopoly powers well and when you see how powerful the use regulators are, how they have throwing their weight around with google and microsoft and apple, you know, that's that's too big to ignore. Yeah, you have to remember, politicians could do a heck of a lot of the end of the day. So really, if they really wanted where that's good or bad we can argue about but they do. And i think the danger of those big companies in america that's exactly what happens that actually politicians do coming and stop breaking up. But you could break the company's up into constituent parts of that seem like a problem. So bout some of you in the value of the growth camp what does it depend on the market ? Well, gross completely had it away for about eight years. Really ? If you think the environment for value might be rising, bond yields on what advice therefore start to struggle because i don't see body lt's rising dramatically and interest rates rising dramatically. But there does come a point where the valuation gap is enormous and it is that has become really big, but i don't see the environments of relatively low inflation body lt's sort of changing, so that tips you back towards that sort of growth area. So just mark marginally towards growth, but well, i think the trouble is i'm in a great anyone knows me, i'm a great equity in confined in the uk that particular right back towards sort of value. I just think you have to be more careful today on value than in the past because of the disruption. Technologies on dh. Yeah, the old days that historically, this company was cheap. Well, but it might be a value trap today. So you got to be more. I mean, adrian frost years ago in two thousand. Talks about internet proofing is fine and i think manages today look att se way say, well, okay, is company looks great and it looks cheap, but is it being disrupted by amazon by these other coming look, look what's happening on the high street ? That is a really great point, some when you're talking to fund managers, when you have a conversation what's value what's of value trap what what has to come out, they having to tweet ? They're metrics there models, i think, also given the macro background i'm i'm much more favor off a defensive growth. Stocks must have goods and services, which which, regardless of what happens, you still need their products. I think you know, speculative start ups, that sort of thing or very cyclical companies could struggle. It's you you two used to use a quick that i hate it does feel a bit different this time compared to previous cycles in that we haven't had the strong growth. I don't see the strong interest rate rises, which traditionally favor of value philosophy, but same time i'm contrary and focus a little ticks all the boxes that you have to start looking at value. So, actually, our strategy tends to be across the board. Some would call it a cop. It it's a barbell approach. You look for the best fund managers in value. You take the best managers in growth. If you have a blend of those you can, you can beat the passive auction, and i do think there's, good opportunities in both side again, smart set, because the gap has stretched evaluation, get between the two areas, eventually, evaluation, because castle catalyst. So so, having having no value would be wrong, but i don't see it being a complete source flip in terms of soil serving. Can i like acting quality defensive equity income funds in there, but also got funds, which have a value bullets the same. Exactly. Same, that that approach has gotta be the any approach friend, frankly, for much of a debate. Teo that's headlines you're you'll agree that it doesn't often happen waiting quite animate about what's going on markets, but behind it all, some when you're upto clients, how animated that there they feel ng the same sort of concerns around politics and markets evaluations that you are is a professional. Well, i think i mean, the problem is in these in these times is that column inches dedicated to the next crash, which seem to be sort of predicted in every year is wearisome to a degree because you know the market fundamentals are still in place remarkably, frankly given, given how long this bull market has been going, but bull markets don't die of old age they divers left field event on dh that doesn't seem to have happened yet. Kevin, you i think it's the political noise is just constantly in the faces of headlines that's definitely unnerve ing clients and particularly the uk, back spectacularly in the uk, but elsewhere, you know, when you think that if you stay, the bull market started at the bottom of the see the last one, two thousand nine every year since then, we've had a disaster scenario suggested the market's gonna half. And then we got, we got to two thousand twelve, and we're the brexit thing. And now wanted by no one wanted by europe. Even that was really cheap. That went through every. I've never know. I can't remember a period of time when so many people have been complete consultant. And, in fact, in two thousand twelve, loads of clients on the back of a certain magazine sold pork values outright because they thought that was it. And here we are. I mean, what a disaster that was actually trying to keep people in a bull market is, ironically, the hardest thing. I think. I can't think of a period where people have switched off so much teo politics. I mean, they know how important it is, but it's, just so on it goes. You know, the thing is the guys in the media. Because it's, because i find it really, i find it really interesting, particularly in two thousand eight, but i don't know what you guys think, but i remember satellite tv coming in and everyone went our wonderful have one hundred channels because we get instead of a hundred channels of quality it's hundred showers of pretty much rubbish. I needed you on now with the internet, whatever we have, we have journalists who are as good as their last article on the internet, which was two seconds ago, and now we have another one, so we just get pages and pages of stuff all the time, and i just i actually don't think there's enough to write you there's not enough to write and so the scare stories do get the biggest use flat seem to get it biggest news life. I'm always corrected by made you say so. You only want me to report good news ? Well, well, well, no, but just it kind of feels relentlessly bad news is i have to say the quality has dropped off in an enormous way because you just can't write enough. You can't write that amount of content and keep the quality up ? Well, i've given this, i suppose, is a parallel with politics, which is there's just more and more out there. So there's more and more white noise and everyone getting tied up in the very short term. So for all of you, when you're doing your research, what is the sort of slightly longer term perspective ? Who were some of the author's or writers or bloggers that you don't agree with ? But they always produce something you think that's worth ? Well, i love always love arguing people, and so i always argued, merit married some set way but she's a nice comments, i actually think so. He writes off for your weekly in the fto here has money. Well, i'll always read that column. I do agree with a lot of the time when you think she's wrong, of course. Well, naturally, but but the fact is she she makes you think that's what i want from a commentator somewhere. Not sort of that i haven't thought about that angle. That's. What ? You that's ? What i mean by quality as opposed to just regards. You take t press releases, which is an awful lot off. And there's just far too much of the same stuff. It's trying to find the gym gentle people like like marron who just have a different view two votes for her that any anyone else that gets follow more people who do them, people who talk about it. It's fun man, i don't necessarily invest in people. Crispin od, william littlewood, troy asset management provide really good commentary and really thought provoking top that way about you guys, but we sent a much more just on the fund managers anyway, so we in fact, the one lot about macron on happy talk about it. We don't actually spend a huge amount of time on that crack because we just spend our time trying to find the best fund managers and really say, you god, we give you the money, you get on with it, and actually it does cut out a lot of the noise, it's a sort of nick try, phoenix is the the person to look at his ability just to sort of site, you know, i've got no view on interest rates because i don't know where they're going to go brexit, where i put it to one side, these of the company but these the cos i'm going by unilever's gun of history of forty years of increasing dividends. Where is it going to change our people ? Not drink beer anymore. So heineken it's a great way of looking at it but by god it's very difficult to do and for private clients just given the new noise virtually persuading being optimistic. Yeah, yeah, well, we've mentioned way mentioned their top for manages and grateful management teams. There is the perpetual name i believe it's finally departing from october perpetual has got a finite life. They've been around for a long time somebody or thoughts on them. What do they bring to the uk market ? What can we do for ministers today ? Learn from its being that fabulous business off being far from the madding crowd in london. Being out there in henley was a sort of it broke the mould him. In many ways it was what one of the first proper boutiques of the size, the start of that wonderful international fund lockers world there's always yes, he started. He started that fun. Just the bottom of a bear market in nineteen. Seventy, i think if i remember that's exactly when what a cracking time look at the performance was a labour government and during the seventies were just yeah, ted heath as well, and that was the worst tory government of alzheimer's world with an argument, there is an argument for that, but we were well, precisely, but it was right. They built a business on that, you know, long before woodford arrived yet thank you, i think, it's that captures son said it's being based in henley, and i still found it somewhat strange that most of the industry feels that they need to be within a square mile in london from paying those exorbitant rents went up and i went when technology is is totally changed things, but so they're well ahead of their time off moving away from the noise and had a very much a beauty culture. But group significantly and maintain that culture really sing mark is what's the names about disappear. They have been known by a completely different company for the best part of eighteen years. So what does that tell you about how to manage mergers ? Because we're going through aberdeen standard life janice henderson, thie, invesco perfect. Merger of the time they did lose the number of farmers, you know that that particular good fund managers emerges always upset the rhythm of the fund managers ? I think so. I'm not a great fan of mergers. And obviously you got the avedon avedon standard life one. Actually, they've done well in not losing a lot of people, but king trouble is the bigger organization gets, the harder it is to keep a sort of independent view. Perpetual. Vesco perpetual have managed to sort of keep their fund managers as jupiter. Kind of focused on what they do. So they always have a house view. And i think that's important. Otherwise people just get into a sort of complete groupthink. And i think with that one with geography, invesco left them to it very much the right way of doing it. How to you is people who buy funds on behalf of plants. How do you avoid group thing ? Because you're all different sizes. Some gavin. Yeah, we have over a team based approach and healthy debates, but small team of four people sitting round the deaths going to the meetings. Come on, then it tends to three. Two. Votes if if this disparity but we tend to look for the same things in fund managers and that is individual thinking, we don't want institutional approach if we're going to pay for active management, we want high conviction, well clearly defined philosophy investors with a proven track record, a small was saying earlier, i'm not really interested in managers who are trying to second guess their corbyn's going again or brexit, we want people again people about richard piece in this living for the best part of twenty years again, he wouldn't have a ofyou on italian banks or the accepted doesn't invest in them or what's gonna happen in the euro. He's just got really drill dames, deep dive knowledge of the company's he invested in and that's that's what we're really looking for blending value and growth, we do make us delegation were going different markets, but it's finding those managers that's really know the stocks inside and some of this point in the cycle is you favoring active managers ? Or is there a place i think it's going to be fascinating to see how this all turns out over the next two years or so ? Where ? Where we will see the real truth of off over off how the tube i think that really passive verb in the huge beneficial off the last ten years, the numbers are extraordinary the size of thes funds. One wonders what happens when they have to sell me when, when, when they meet redemptions. But i think the whole mood change well in a tough market environment will come to the fore when on active will once again, i think quite quickly reap the benefits. Would you go on without only partly ? Yeah, think of it well, but that's all too confusing for most people, a passive has had a great ride in a bull market, and in fact you could say that they ran their own stocks up. Active managers have done it before now, said wise, passive any different if atm or so i'm i think there are different, i don't think it's going to change. I think first of all, for management is a big change and financial history earns a lot of money and probably too much to be quite frank on dh i think there will be a downward further downward pressure on phase on. On active and i think that that's probably right, but actually the passive active debate i get a bit bored with because it's like what ? First of all, on the passenger side, you're dealing with almost religious zealots, so it doesn't matter what you say, but at the end of the day, we've got one trillion i think it's about one trillion pounds in cash in this country, so kind of instead of arguing amongst ourselves whether investment trust better than unit trust and pattern active, how about getting some of these one one trillion ? So if it means that people get a bypass, if you're a starter by passive, because actually it doesn't matter, because it gets you in the market. So actually my argue, it would be this get people invested in the market and it's too much to talk about ourselves, but i think the investment trust injuries one hundred sixty billion in size, one trillion in cash, how successful that way haven't actually done a great job is what i'm really saying and that's what i so i would rather stop bickering amongst ourselves because there's a beginner you think if they don't know how i know, so let's get him in if it means getting impassive funds like virgin did. Doesn't matter get him in because once they're in, they become more interested. Get you in is the hard way are out of time. I want to get a final four from each of you. Gavin, if i could come to you on that first given where we are, the markets if you have one message for investors or indeed, if there's one piece of wisdom from all of these five minutes that you're talking to so something to bear in mind, frank, what ? Probably focus on companies, not countries and politics. And if you do that, i think good value toe beat the more easily returns on cash for anyone taking a medium to long term someone. I think diversification is got to be the key thing spreading our assets around the globe in these times. Fuck there's rule brilliant. And i agree with all that. I think if i look at my mistakes, i think the biggest thing is what we talked about earlier, which is emotion. If you can get the emotion out, stop almost not reading as much and start looking. So much news, read books, not article. Yeah, you make better. I think you make better decisions because you've got investment, is really about being patient investors on. We got lots of emotion out today, so hopefully it'll be making better decisions when you get back to test itself. Gentlemen, thank you very much. Thank you for watching from all of us here. Goodbye for now.