Speaker 0:
Hello and welcome to this live family office connect event. I'm pleased to introduce speakers dialling in from around the world and in the studio. They come from a a range of different backgrounds. But broadly, we're here to talk about family offices and private wealth and venture capital. I'll let them all introduce themselves very shortly. Well, hello to everyone. Dialling in nor quick. I'd like to come to you first if you could give yourself a bit of an intro and a bit of background to those joining us here.

Speaker 0:
Thank you very much, Rory. And thank you very much for this opportunity, too. Hello. From Sunny Singapore. It's afternoon and good morning to all of you. Uh, I'm no, um, and I've been, uh I started my life as a as a banker. Both in then was not private banking, but now it is in corporate finance. I've been at it for 40 for 40 years for decades, and then I went on to start my own wealth advisory,

Speaker 0:
uh, first, featuring a family office and now also very much into talent. Um, I cover the region basically meaning Southeast Asia. And now, interestingly, China, North Asia And, of course, Switzerland and the UK. I'm a grandmother to seven. I'm 73 I'm still loving what I do.

Speaker 0:
Excellent. Uh, a Morley Hello. Welcome to the programme. Same to you. Could you give yourself an introduction and tell everyone here where you're coming from?

Speaker 1:
Well, thank you for making me follow the no. So much more interesting than I am. Um, but yeah, thank you very much. Uh, a more, uh, Wentworth Hall family office. Uh, I do the sort of the fintech investing for the family office side of things. Um, my background has been mostly, you know, working for the banks and the city of London

Speaker 1:
and then later on, moved into sort of more fintech related some V c, some multifamily office, and currently a single family office investments. We primarily look at investing in the Middle East and in the UK.

Speaker 0:
Uh, Frederick. Hello to you could save again. Hello. Um, my name is I'm a French, Uh, but I live in Switzerland, in the in Lugano,

Speaker 0:
in the Italian speaking Switzerland, and I'm the founder of Border Rent, which is an investment company in real estate focused on border regions. Uh, within Europe, mainly the border between Monaco and France. The border between, um, Switzerland and France and Italy and Switzerland. Um, and I grew up in the real estate industry because of my family, um, investment in Monaco and and in France for the past four generation. Um,

Speaker 0:
I'm grew up professionally in the alternative investment space, mainly in, um, uh, hedge funds and private equity, Um, and also real estate funding, real estate developments all across Europe.

Speaker 0:
And, um, I am the father of three Children. And I'm investing with the idea to, uh, for for the long term and to preserve wealth of a multigeneration. And I'm also advising, um, different family members on their alternative investments because it's no longer as safe as it used to be. To just leave your money in the Swiss bank. You know, Adina, welcome to you.

Speaker 0:
Good morning, London. My name is Edina. I am heading Alina Kraus. I'm heading the innovation department. You know, source. The innovation department of a multi family office called Toledo Capital started my career with Deutsche Bank igra to Israel in 1999. Found ground within the Israeli high and ecosystem was recruited to the First International Bank of Israel, um, in Switzerland, set in

Speaker 0:
2007, stayed with them for 7.5 years and joined Toledo Capital afterwards. Toledo Capital is doing classical portfolio management. Um has a strong focus on real estate, actually, through our real estate investment boutique, a group with €1.6 billion transaction volume. And I'm

Speaker 0:
and basically together with my team working, um, on the innovation side. But I think we'll get to speak about that a little bit later. Um, personally love travelling, uh, travelled in 72 countries so far. And, um, married with Children and

Speaker 0:
excellent. And Louis, last but not least welcome to the studio. Where are you coming from? And what's your background? Um, morning, everyone. Um I'm Lou. I'm from, um I live in the UK, just southeast England. I've been my background is I've been working in tech for the last 25 years, mostly in London and a bit of time in New York. Um,

Speaker 0:
early stage technology companies, startups is is what I've been doing as an operator for 20 years. But the last six years, Uh um, I've been through Founders Factory in G force where I am now investing in early stage technology companies across a range of sectors. Um, at Founders factory, we have, um we've made about 300 investments in the last six years. Uh, and now I'm just have spent the last year and a half, uh, specifically in climate tech.

Speaker 0:
Uh, we launched our first fund and made eight investments to test the hypothesis. Um, and we're on to our second fund now where we invest in 35 preceed climate companies.

Speaker 0:
Well, well, thank you very much. It's a very broad area. We've got speakers from all over the space, but an area that came up quite a lot. And no, I'd like to start with you on this one was a sort of generational gap When it comes to family offices, it comes to that family wealth, too. No, if you give us a bit of an insight into the challenges that maybe you've seen when it comes to different family members talking about where they invest and how they invest.

Speaker 0:
Thank you very much. Rory, I think that is very re, uh, relevant. More so today than ever. But let me just, uh focus my attention on Asia. Uh, for those of you who know Asia, um, culture is still very much a part of the way we think, and we act. However well educated people are, there is a tendency as they get older to, uh, you know, latch on to their cultures and those who've left countries like China and India feel it's

Speaker 0:
trying to pay back because they left when they were poor. And now they're rich, so and so forth. We're finding this dichotomy between the older generation and the younger generation who who left, you know, when they were in their teens, went to the US or the UK Um, culturally, uh, think, uh, very much more worldly. Uh, what has happened, uh, over the years is that as wealth accumulated and particularly in real estate,

Speaker 0:
it's very difficult to, uh, explain to the, um uh, original founders the importance of, uh uh a well spread, uh uh, asset base, Uh, and not being in one country in one currency in one asset class,

Speaker 0:
Uh, thanks to what the Singapore government has done with the private banks and with K, Y, C and AM l. And you know um, talking about, uh uh, um the importance of diversification. We are seeing, uh, as a result of crisis in particular. And I've seen six crisis in my career that suddenly the older generation wakes up and realises, Oh, my God, yes,

Speaker 0:
they could be right. I need to be looking another way. But it's that resistance to change, which we're seeing more and more so that and when it comes to diversification of assets, I think, uh, there is generally a tendency not to want to let go until you have to.

Speaker 0:
More so in Asia. Uh, in some countries, like in Indonesia and in in in Thailand and the Philippines, those who are trained overseas tend to come back to work with their families. Singapore is different. We're very much a professional, uh, based, uh, country. And we render, uh, professional advice to clients. But, uh, what I'm beginning to find is that more and more investors are looking next

Speaker 0:
to them as they as the economy and and and the, uh, wealth increases in Asia, that's going to be happening a lot more and then telling themselves, Well, I was head of the auto in Thailand. Is there something I can do in Indonesia. And so these expansions and diversifications are happening, but not easily, because they are very reluctant to let go of control

Speaker 0:
and what the countries are saying, especially in financial services. If there is,

Speaker 0:
uh uh, uh A need to get into industries like finance. We want to control it

Speaker 0:
when it comes to investments. Guys, you can invest overseas if you have money, but make sure you also invest in your own country.

Speaker 0:
So we're seeing all of these

Speaker 0:
and, uh, you know, we just have to, uh, and in all of that is transformation. That's happening now together with tech. So it's not easy, but exciting. You're coming at this from AAA different geographical angle. But you spent time in the Middle East and Dubai. Are you seeing similar things going on? I

Speaker 1:
am. I mean, let's take a step back and look, you know, the big difference there can't be between the previous generation and this generation.

Speaker 1:
So you had generation of family wealth that was pretty much just handed down U V Advisors consultants per way into real estate locked up in banks. And that's how it worked. It was perfectly fine for hundreds of years, as many European family officers can attest. What has happened in the last 30 to 40 years is we've had a massive explosion in in the tech side of things which has changed everything. So we're the first. So I'm second generation.

Speaker 1:
Um, which is funny, because I you know, I'm sort of almost 50 and I have three kids, and somehow I'm the youngest generation.

Speaker 1:
But, um, what I have seen is that we're the generation that's traversing this sort of chasm between old sort of family office values and the the movement of time and technology. Um, what you have now is family members who are more erudite than they used to be more business savvy than they used to be.

Speaker 1:
So the family office would go straight to the V CS. Let's say, 15, 20 years ago. Take my money. You guys know what you're doing. We'll just sort of keep it with traditional finance, uh, and go from there. European family offices are incredibly tedious. They they just put it into real estate,

Speaker 1:
locked it away, and, you know, no one gets fired for buying I B M shares as the old adage goes, So that was fine. But now we're in a very interesting situation. And so when I I work in in Dubai, we have an office there as well. Um, what I'm seeing is that you're having a a smart

Speaker 1:
a generation coming in that has, and I'm talking about, sort of. I'm a little bit biassed towards Generation X and my generation. So we were around before technology took over. Uh, but also so we knew of the old World. But we also understand to traverse the new World. And so what I'm seeing now is the next generation coming in saying I don't want my my the investments in one country locked into one thing. I want a diversification.

Speaker 1:
I want a tech stack and I want a financial tech stack which never happened before. And there's a slight push and shove going on between the generations as far as I can see. Um, but there there it is, going that way. So family offices are growing and prominent. And in Dubai, I'm seeing a lot of very tech savvy, uh, family offices who who've come into wealth only in the last 50 years, or so,

Speaker 1:
but they're moving forward and they're very clever, especially climate. Um, there's a lot of I'm not sure how this works on a on a scientific level, but, um, this cloud seeding, for example, um, where they see the clouds and make it rain. I don't know if it's good for the environment or not. It's not my part of the, you know, expertise. But I am seeing a massive leaps in new family office wealth combining, you know, a bit of everything.

Speaker 0:
Uh, and before we move on, Adina not to go around the world too much, But this from the European angle, uh, picking up on the last speaker's points. What are you seeing in this space?

Speaker 0:
Yeah, I mean, it's it's quite interesting. First of all, it's It's also the Sixth Crisis, Uh, in my career, probably different crisis. So, uh, why I always say diversification is key. And that's something that is often difficult because if you look at the, um,

Speaker 0:
at the older generation, so our clients are with us, are managing their assets with us for for close to over 20 years already. So we have the first generation second generation and next generation. So we have we have different Um, yeah, depending on the client's families, because we're working with quite a lot of, uh, clients, quite a lot of families at the multifamily office.

Speaker 0:
So, um, first generation has actually made the money themselves. So, um, you know, they kind of OK, put the money aside. Like, you know, it's more preservation of the for the for the future generation and the money they made from their businesses.

Speaker 0:
And

Speaker 0:
we're more on the on the fence. Let's say more, more, uh, conservative ways of wealth management. Now, second generation comes in, have already a very different lifestyle. First generation, for example, like real estate a lot. This is also why we are so, um, have such a strong focus on real estate because you buy a building, you know? So you have your bricks and stones, you know that that has always prevailed. Now second generation comes in. Then they see, um, trading. They see,

Speaker 0:
um, Bank of capital, right. They see these major exits and and then they want to be part of it and get involved. And that's

Speaker 0:
sometimes difficult when you have, like, you know, on the one hand the first generation wants to give over.

Speaker 0:
On the other hand,

Speaker 0:
they don't really wanna give, uh, give over. And they wanna They wanna stick to the, um, to the, uh, control. So that is sometimes, you know, the family office. You have to be involved and be, you know, the neutral party, um, between And then you have the future generation who have seen complete different levels of wealth. I mean, if you look back, like, 20 years ago, if you have, like, 10 2030 million, you were very rich, right? And now, if you look at all these

Speaker 0:
tech founders exiting I mean, we're talking of complete different levels of wealth. And then, of course, diversification doesn't make such a difference anymore. You want to invest in social impact?

Speaker 0:
It's It's a very different way of, uh, asset allocation. Actually, I'd like to come back to diversification, but Frederick, from a real estate perspective, and we've heard real estate, you mentioned quite a lot here. What are the opportunities that you're currently seeing in this space? What's going on?

Speaker 0:
Um, in the field of real estate, uh, what I'm seeing in at least in in Europe. Uh, is, um, um big uncertainty on the valuation. Um, with the shrinking of credit opportunities for average households, um, and the

Speaker 0:
issuance of new norms often driven by the European Commission, um, which have the intention to make, uh, buildings more energy efficient. But it it can have, like many norms. Sometimes with good intentions, you can, uh, create new price. Um, So what we see at the moment, for instance, in France is the limitation of the rental, uh, available properties, Um,

Speaker 0:
which increases rental prices, Um and, um, whether there will be a crash in real estate is very difficult. I think crash in real state has been predicted many times. Um and, um, if you look at different segments of real estate, they're more or less, uh, vulnerable to the interest rate situation.

Speaker 0:
Um, if you're looking at properties where there's, um, an important usage values like rentals, it's connected to the actual usage of society. There's a need for people to get housing. So, um, if you look at, um,

Speaker 0:
properties in the in the upper luxury, uh, space, they're a bit more dependent on on available credit. Uh, and, um, then ultra luxury is, it's a different world at the moment. I'm, um,

Speaker 0:
working on the valuation in in Monaco, and it's the highest price that's been ever recorded. Um, so this we exceed €50,000 per square metre, which is far more expensive than what you have in the centre of Paris or London or New York. And, um so there's a a big question mark on on the valuation. Is it still a safe haven? Uh, a safe, safe haven. Um,

Speaker 0:
and I think it needs to be part of a diversification. If you're, uh if you plan for multigenerational, um, you know, wealth management, Um,

Speaker 0:
the the beauty of real estate is still the predictable income. And, uh, if you have it for a significant part of your portfolio, then you can add more aggressive, um, strategies like V C. C, where you have access to the exponential returns, which you will never have, at least in this generation. In real estate. You cannot invest in real estate in 2023 with the idea to make the exponential returns that have been known, uh, in the previous generation,

Speaker 0:
um, interesting. And Lou, I'd like to bring you in here because we can't have this debate about innovation and diversification without talking to some of the V C companies that you invest in. Could you talk about some of the real success stories? I'll give you just a bit of a bit of flavour on what I'm seeing with family officers. The first generation technology founders who've exited, really understand our sector and come in quite quickly What I've the the second generation family officers I've spoken to,

Speaker 0:
um, seem to to be really wary of early stage technology, particularly climate tech investing. So it's quite a job for us to try and educate those people as to why we think it's an alternative asset class. But why? We think it's a safe asset class with all of the the the pressure coming in. Um, but in terms of some of the examples of the companies we're investing in, um,

Speaker 0:
I mean we're investing across all sectors, all companies at at the preceed stage that can help reduce greenhouse gas emissions. So we have material science companies. We have a company in our in our in our portfolio called, uh, materials nexus who's using big data and a I to to create recipes to design, uh, higher performing, lower cost, uh, rare earth materials, for example. Magnets,

Speaker 0:
Uh, we have in a company that's called manna Insects. That's, um, uh, producing insect, uh, protein, uh, decentralised insect protein. So anything that's in the supply chain or helping reduce greenhouse gas emissions, those are the companies we're investing in at the preceed stage, and in terms of that space climate, tech, there's quite a lot of tailwinds currently happening in the space, right, That's boosting these companies. Yeah. I mean, I think I think you know, So Winds is a, um

Speaker 0:
It is a very light term for what's happening. The whole world is transitioning to a a carbon free economy, and it's driven by, you know, the Paris Agreement. Then, um, the the Net 0, 50 goals. Um, uh, all the research by the IPCC in terms of we have to get to net zero by 2050.

Speaker 0:
Uh, the legislation that's coming down from that. The IRA, the Inflation Reduction Act in the US and the UK we've got on Europe. We've got, uh, the green deal. That legislation then is also driving consumer intent and we're also seeing finally, um uh in this day and age, uh, consumers are so much more aware of what's happening with the climate from, you know, we see pictures of polar bears in the Arctic and the ice caps melting and sea levels rising. Extreme weather.

Speaker 0:
So there's there's legislation. There's consumer understanding and awareness. Uh, there's the prices of of of technology have come down significantly. So so you can transition to, you know, a greener, uh, lifestyle. Um um, or economy And you We can afford it now. So there's tonnes of tailwinds that we're seeing in the in the sector. Uh, and a diversification, different technologies. We've had climate tech, but you were an early investor in in Blockchain. Am I right? So

Speaker 0:
if you could tell me what what got your interest there and and what you're seeing now in perhaps that space and other innovators like that?

Speaker 1:
Well, I was definitely the infant to for a while. Uh, I remember going to family office conferences, and, uh, I was talking about cryptocurrencies and Blockchain, and the second I mentioned that I might as well have just said I'm, you know, co partners of Bernie Madoff. I mean, I might as well done exactly that. So, uh, it was amazing how these family offices put, you know, put their noses up, didn't want to know, didn't want to think beyond the box.

Speaker 1:
And I thought I was gonna get into trouble with my family office that maybe it's a little bit too, uh, avant garde. Maybe it's a little bit too, uh, out there, out layer technology. And I have to say I was pleasantly surprised because, uh, my father who wrote the A a questionnaire who'd effectively brought in hedge funds to the UK um,

Speaker 1:
saw it as this is something that's gonna happen in some capacity or another. Everybody can do sort of, you know, same same thinking and say, Well, it's riddled with scams and issues and fine, that's true of everything in some capacity or another. Um, so when this technology started to take root and I started, I you know, I came from a hedge fund world

Speaker 1:
and I saw the the beauty of of the technology how it can decentralise the real ethos of it. Not the nonsense and the the the noise that came after. But the actual decentralised technology and what it offers to to the world in some capacity or another. So the first year or two, I wasn't allowed to talk about it at family office conferences. They're, like, just just talk about being a second jet. OK,

Speaker 1:
then, um, it took off and I was the bell of the ball from the infant to the bell of the ball. Um, and I sort of spent a lot of time explaining what it is, breaking it down

Speaker 1:
to trying to make the difference between what Blockchain technology is, uh, to the Cryptocurrency craze, which are two separate things in in in many ways. Um and so that that was kind of the interesting change. Seeing how technology, how generational is, is shifting slowly.

Speaker 1:
And then suddenly the family officers realised that this is actually a way for them to to get a more overview, to invest in different countries and different, uh, vectors, verticals. So that was sort of my journey with the Blockchain technology. And now, 10 years later, eight years later,

Speaker 1:
since I've been in the industry, we're seeing it sort of reaching more institutional level. If you ignore the the noise and and follow the signal the actual development of technology, which I'm sure you have very similar experience with climate technology. Just sorry to add my extra two cents worth. It reminds me of, um a great, uh uh, analogue, which is Society grows great when all men,

Speaker 1:
you know, plant trees that they will never enjoy the shade of, um and that's the way that we should be thinking about it. But we're an AD d generation, and I guess there's more to go with our maturation into this technology stack and all its vectors.

Speaker 0:
Yeah. I mean, the thing that I find so fascinating with with with the climate and climate tech is I don't think there's ever been an agreement as big as the Net 0 2050 goal where all these countries have come together unanimously. The scientific community has unanimously bar a few NASA and conspiracy theorists agreed that to to improve humanity or save humanity, we need to

Speaker 0:
reduce our greenhouse gas emissions to zero by 2050 to stay with these temperature rises. And that North star goal has now, you know, filtered down into government legislation. You know, huge legislation that the IRA in the US is the biggest, uh, stimulus package ever passed. Um, and it's called the IRA Inflation Reduction Act when it should actually be the Climate Change Act. But we can't use that term, and it's too polarising in the US.

Speaker 0:
So So you've got this for the first time. A long term goal set by and agreed on by almost all governments, uh, all scientists moving down to governments moving down to consumers. Um, and and and and so so so So the transition is real and big and technology prices have come down. Capital is coming in, talent is coming in. It's a beautiful place to be as an investor, the tail winds are unprecedented.

Speaker 0:
Um uh, and I don't see it that I mean, I'm a bit biassed, but I don't see it as, um

Speaker 0:
as a a trend that might, you know, Blockchain had had problems with its trending. It was, as you said, it was the infant terrible at one time, and it was the darling for a few years. But we've seen these technology trends. I think we're at a stage now. It feels like the tail winds and the societal pressure. Uh, is, uh, makes for a healthy environment for climate investing, and Edina innovation is very important to you and Toledo Capital does a lot of what the speakers have said ring true for you.

Speaker 0:
Absolutely. So, first of all, very funny, because I I know Alan's father still from, like, many, many years ago and, uh, the real estate side. And at the time he mentioned Blockchain and I was like, Block what? And I think the first Blockchain was, uh So Alan, uh, must have been like, I don't know, 15 years ago or something like that, but really, quite a while and in terms of the innovation. So we were looking, uh, from a family office point of view, and I mentioned before that we have a lot of first generation.

Speaker 0:
How can we derisk, uh, investments into venture capital and make it relevant for a family office clients? Because, you know, we can't really afford to invest into 10 companies. Nine, uh, go bust, and then one makes it big time, and then we get an average out of it, like maybe venture capital funds. Uh, we're doing it. So, um, one of our, um, larger clients has, um, a very

Speaker 0:
a big portfolio in Angel investments. And he said, Why don't you do business development for our portfolio companies and see, you know, product market fit and so on.

Speaker 0:
And I was, like, a bit puzzled. But I thought, you know what? The idea itself is actually not bad. And we found it in the source ventures, uh, where we are now, 23 people. Um, doing, um, strategic business development. Um,

Speaker 0:
for the year

Speaker 0:
portfolio companies of our clients in the three different sectors, actually, uh, health care, tech and sustainability and also in different stages. So we help them to find product market fit, um, corporate connections, strategic business development, partnership agreements, um, licencing agreements, distribution agreements, get them into accelerator programmes, and, um,

Speaker 0:
enable them, uh, to to have more revenue from, uh, different markets and that we have been doing in the past four years. Uh, quite successfully. So we never had a litigation. I really hope that stays that way. And we get to know the founders. We get to know how they operate, how they work.

Speaker 0:
Uh, we help also in the equity rate. And once there's like a V c coming in. Or like a lead investor. Then, uh, the family office would join Consolidate, uh, our client base base, um, to to come in. We once did a, um, SPV. Um, like a bankable vehicle that, um, our clients could subscribe to through the bank account, but, uh, otherwise, uh, we enable them to, um, go on the cap tables with relatively small tickets if

Speaker 0:
it runs. So

Speaker 0:
because again, like as I said before, diversification, um, is key for us. And if the family says they want to invest a million in venture capital and we prefer that they go in into 10 different startups than than yeah, usually only those that we are working with, uh and no, Singapore is an innovation hub. Are you seeing similar moves in technology there and around the region?

Speaker 0:
Very much so. But I think that we're very serious about putting E s, g and and and and and the whole, uh, tech regime connected with it. The issue is, and I think it's an issue everywhere, but perhaps more so here because in this, uh, in this frenzy, right use that word to be seen to be doing it there's not enough learning and development,

Speaker 0:
and it's got to be down to up and up to down. That's very, very important. Now we've got legislation. That's, uh we've got requirements by the stock exchange that, uh uh, um

Speaker 0:
uh, in the annual report, they have actually to say, uh how they, uh uh, you know, are embarking on on these, uh, and and I think that the the the whole technology thing, uh, it a technology issue and the, uh, transformation issue is slightly out of line because there are all these three things moving at the same time. Um, that, uh and sometimes when you bring a A project to a client,

Speaker 0:
um, the older generation is saying Why are we investing? Uh, $100 million for a return of 18% when we can put this into something that is going to yield us 24. And that's one of the challenges that the younger people are facing now, having said that and I was listening to the discussion just now, I think one major change that has taken place in family office discussions is the involvement of women.

Speaker 0:
Definitely. The gender factor is playing a very important part in getting voices heard

Speaker 0:
and fathers, however, however traditional they were, and now sort of saying, Oh my goodness, my daughter is clever.

Speaker 0:
My wife knows what she's doing and this one plus one is actually we're beginning to see it become 11.

Speaker 0:
I'm a strong proponent of that. I'm a co-founder of board agenda.

Speaker 0:
And every time I see a group of men who claim to be board members and I don't see a woman on it, I make it a point to ask where where is the gender diversification?

Speaker 0:
But I think that that is an important point in helping to educate people because it's not about just, uh, I mean, this is a serious issue. I don't know whether any of you read your your your your, uh, mail this afternoon, which I did, and I passed it on. I mean, the roads in India, Apparently the temperature went up to 50 and the tar was melting.

Speaker 0:
I mean, how much does it take before people realise how serious this whole thing is? So coming back to Singapore, it's serious. All our cars by 2027 will will will will not be. You know, we have to go electric, um, regard to the electric way or the hybrid way. And those of us who don't will have to pay a big price for it. So I think it's a total involvement of government

Speaker 0:
policymakers.

Speaker 0:
And, uh and and, uh uh, the banks, the financial advisor, the the the professionals and most inform importantly in the house,

Speaker 0:
right in the family. It starts there. Mom and Dad must show the Children they are serious about it.

Speaker 0:
Yes, in Singapore, it's happening in different in different forms, but I think we will be there sooner rather than later. I think it's a really good point. And there's a lot of that that we could spend a whole a whole hour on a whole webinar on. But, Frederick, I want to bring you in. At this point, you've got experience of of multijurisdictional families, too. And some of the issues there could you bring in any of no points and touch on any of that and just bring in some of the stories that you've experienced? Maybe,

Speaker 0:
um, absolutely. So when there has been a trend, you know, in the past 100 years for wealthy families to marry with people from other countries. And, um, this is, um, still happening this, I think, um, it, however, raises uh, a couple of, um, legal issues. And so, no, you you,

Speaker 0:
uh you brought up the the the issue of gender. But there's there's one thing that is very problematic in, um, the family of his world is the, uh, un enforceability of prenuptial agreements. So if you the the, um,

Speaker 0:
family law doesn't necessarily, um, fit the industrial or financial or corporate objective of of of the firms that are controlled by the family. So I think this this if you're talking about multi jurisdictional, um, families, you're also approaching multi jurisdictional icebergs of being in the incapacity to

Speaker 0:
to have very clear rules on the distribution. Um, within the family. The solution to this has often been the family trusts, but they actually do not work in many parts of the world. And I'm I'm referring in particular in the Latin jurisdiction. So you think of France, uh, Monaco, Switzerland, Italy. So it can happen that one, uh, family member has, um, um is married to friends as an American or

Speaker 0:
from other Chinese and and so there would be in case of a divorce. There would be, uh, issues, uh, another emerging trend in the,

Speaker 0:
uh and so there is work done in the family law, but it's it's just it. It hits the problem of sovereignty in this, um, each jurisdiction wants to make a decision when there's a significant amount at stake. Um, one other emerging problem in the for family wealth, which

Speaker 0:
aims to project itself over many generations, is that there's more and more countries, probably in the future, will opt for the national nationality based taxation. So now only a few countries do it. Uh uh, US North Korea. I think era. Uh, but I think if you one way to preserve wealth for,

Speaker 0:
um, the the past decades, I think has been to collect nationalities. You know, someone will, uh, move to Switzerland, become Swiss, move to another country, get the other nationality. And I think this logic can, um, create issues when there is an emerging trend of, uh, nation nationality based taxation. Um, because each jurisdiction will want one part of the of the often the

Speaker 0:
This leads to a situation where, uh There's, um, legal engineering in preserving the

Speaker 0:
the assets of, uh, and the corporate assets of, uh, uh of family offices. I want to bring you back in here because we've set the scene quite well, and I want to talk about private equity and venture capital. And almost the the easy money that we've seen for so long is drying up. Can family offices now be there? Can they plug the gap of a lot of this easy money? And has this happened before? Is there a precedent for this?

Speaker 1:
Uh, well, I mean, there's cycles, you know, uh, as said, there's been she's lived through six. I've lived for about three or four.

Speaker 1:
Um, we're seeing. Yeah, there's definitely a drive of capital, no matter what anyone is saying or doing, Uh, you know, I I'm on the ground, and I'm raising for my Blockchain in Dubai as we speak. Uh, real world assets. So we're taking real estate. We're taking commodities, uh, options, insurance, and we're making it sort of institutional, uh, facing and easy to use. It's been hard to raise. Um, and you know, other family offices are committed to V CS or other rounds so it's not as liquid as it used to be out there.

Speaker 1:
Uh, for many reasons for our specific sector, it was to do, uh, to do with the F T X collapse, which, uh, had ripple effects across the whole sector. A lot of people got haircuts, and they got, uh, quite, uh, yeah, basically liquidity dried up. Um, but what we are seeing is that family offices are interesting, because in the nineties, when the dot coms were getting bashed about, it was family offices quietly

Speaker 1:
actually getting in there, not via v CS, uh, putting in sort of capital. Um, you know, a lot of the SAS software as a you know, uh, software as a service. Uh, Reddit, uh, Newhouse family are very good at that. In India. The, uh, the um, the Adani family were very good with that. So the the family offices can sometimes come in and rejuvenate a sector that perhaps, uh, investment funds and V c are too scared to step into.

Speaker 1:
Uh, on the other hand, they're also risk averse. It just depends on the appetite of the family office and who they represent. Really?

Speaker 0:
Do you think I mean they'd make the case, Of course, for being a real long term partner, is that some of the stuff that you've come across as well?

Speaker 1:
What do you mean by family officers, partner? Well, you know, I tend when I've invested, uh, I've invested in teams. Um, first off, first off, um, you know, I like a team. I like a diverse team. I like a team with multi skills. Uh, and I've said to them basically, you know, I don't stand too much micromanaging of your investment. Don't make the investment if you need to micromanage it. Surely that, uh,

Speaker 1:
it's it's a contradiction. So what family officers are good at is liquidity, uh, doing their research and then letting the investment run its course, and then the the team build as they would V CS have parameters. They have shareholders. They have people they have to answer to. Um and they can very often, uh, sort of kill a startup, a great startup in its infancy if there's a shift in policy.

Speaker 1:
So family offers are a little bit more sort of nebulous in that sense, but they add value and they will step back and let the investment grow organically.

Speaker 1:
And yeah,

Speaker 0:
I just come to you in the studio quickly. Um, no. I'll come to you in a second. Louis, what's your experience with risk averse? A fair assessment of family office. I think that that assessment of the the capital is much harder to come by right now, is we? We feel that as well. We also have a mantra that great businesses will get funding. There's still funding out there the earlier stage, Uh, sector where we operate precede isn't as as as effective as the later stage.

Speaker 0:
Um, I think the the the family officers, of course, can step in. And as I said earlier, the family offices that we know in our community are largely tech exits. And and they understand, uh, good opportunities.

Speaker 0:
Um, there's a diverse range of family officers, uh, from those that are more conservative and maybe not that aware of early stage technology investing that don't come in. But but for sure? Yes. Family officers can come in, uh, and and and and help out, Um, I think the the the the point that, um was touched on earlier around sometimes V CS can stifle. And over

Speaker 0:
um, direct, uh, mistakenly, uh, startup strategies is an interesting one. The approach that we have taken in our early days Sometimes we would, you know, as the investor feel that we're the authority on what to do and tell startups what to do.

Speaker 0:
But but we quickly learned that you can't tell someone who's living and breathing their business, their market, their customers, their team from the outside. What to do? What what the The better approach, which is? The approach we adopted at Founders Factory in G Force is we We create guard rails and a platform for support. So we we use language like

Speaker 0:
in our opinion, and what we have seen across the whole portfolio is these kinds of things which you might explore. So So we try and give the founders data points from the whole portfolio that can help them make healthy decisions in terms of running their companies. And when they ask us for help on, I'm trying to get, uh, to contacts in this sector, or I'm trying to understand

Speaker 0:
how to process at this stage of my business for this sector, we we we draw on our resources and advice. But we try and not tell people what to do.

Speaker 0:
Uh uh. No. Sorry I had to cut you off there. What were you about to say? I just wanted to add to that point between, like, say, the V CS and the family offices, and again to look just a little bit cultural impact. Uh, in in Asia, where generations are beginning to, uh uh, uh get a hold of the real world and its impact on on on on on their businesses. Um, there was this thing called trust

Speaker 0:
now a name, a family, which has, and it may not even be a full fledged family office. You know, we are assuming that that across the board, the definition of family office is the same. It's not and we'll get back. We'll get to another session where we'll talk about the rules and regulations and the force and so on. But

Speaker 0:
in Indonesia and in Thailand, if you have a family with an established name in Asia in particular, and that family has been doing roads and dams and bridges and now realises well, the consumer markets growing, I'm going to start a supermarket. And I'll put my family name on top.

Speaker 0:
You will have followers. It boils down to trust.

Speaker 0:
So there is a following

Speaker 0:
because people know you've been here for ages. Your family is committed to the country. You've done this, you've done that. And if you're in this, you've done your homework. So I think that that is one very important point we're seeing here. And when the family officers work with other organisations, whether they're local or they're foreign, there is also an element of trust in that which will see the herd instinct of investors

Speaker 0:
and Edina again, I I'd like to get your perspective from a European side. Does a lot of what North said there ring true for you

Speaker 0:
and I First of all I I see like big One on family offices as alternative source for for capital. And many founders think that OK and our v CS are drying up. So family offices are kicking in. So I think it's first of all important to understand what is a family office. Family offices. There are multifamily offices, the conservative family offices. There are tech family offices, a single family office, you know, like it's all anywhere. It's about building trust and getting to know that nobody is going to throw money at you,

Speaker 0:
not before and not in the and definitely not in the current, uh, environment, right? It's building a relationship, and that can take time. So it's not going to be the past solution.

Speaker 0:
Um, from a single family office. Obviously, it's easier to to get a get a, get a faster decision. Um, multifamily office. You know, you might get bigger tickets because you have several families, uh, that you can that you can approach. So once you, you you did the sale, you did it right. A tech family office. Or like a family office of a tech entrepreneur. Um, you will always like there will always be the tech entrepreneur. And when it comes to tech investment, he will be involved.

Speaker 0:
Yeah, so they might. He might, um, let them presque it. But you know, the ultimate investment decision is going to be made by the founder or by the by the former founder itself, and and he will be He will be actively in work. So I don't think that that this is the fast solution now for getting out of the crisis. I mean, um but as I said before, this is not the first crisis in my career. And, uh, healthy corrections are also coming out of it because I think we all agree generations have gone

Speaker 0:
the rule. You know, there's a reputation in, uh, in my sector early stage tech that family offices are like unicorns, like they we don't know where they are. We don't know who they are because they just don't. Doesn't seem where our early stage companies get money from. Firstly is friends and family and other entrepreneurs who have been successful. The the the the notion of family office.

Speaker 0:
Um, it's a broad term, as was pointed out, but, um, you know, we scratch our heads all the time. What of what is where do you Where do you How do you get to these people? Because our our you know, we go to angel syndicates and we go to venture capital funds. Family offices are lost on that list. So So I think if you play that theme around,

Speaker 0:
maybe family officers aren't the panacea for the for the wealth gap. For the for the investment gap for particularly early stage tech, I think. I think that's a good point. And you're right. It's a very broad term. But, Fred again, I want to bring you into this because I know when we caught up before this, we spoke about cross border urban centres, and I think it would be useful at this stage to talk about, especially when we talk about the different geographies and and how a lot of cities come into it. I think your perspective on this would be really useful.

Speaker 0:
Um, so as, uh, Louis highlighted, there can be, um, at the moment governments, uh, deciding, um um, regulations, which which will take a lot of control on the economy and society in general. And I think, as the the the public sector is taking more power uh, in, um, uh, in our economy, the the borders suddenly become materialised. And if um

Speaker 0:
however, um, uh, urban centres, uh can be developed regardless and develop um,

Speaker 0:
a symbiotic, uh, relationship with the two parts of the border. Uh, I'm thinking of the example of Monaco where you have, uh, a bit like in a caste society, uh, people living in France commuting every day to Monaco never would they ever, you know, be Monaco residents. Never would they ever buy in Monaco. But they kind of it it They work in symbiosis and, um

Speaker 0:
and so this creates opportunity also from an investment point of view. And I've noticed that also in other areas in in Europe, for instance, in, um um, which was one of the which is one of the poorest city in in France and the it has its moments of glory

Speaker 0:
with the automotive industry. But now it's really a working class community, but still urban. It's connected with bail, which is the most competitive, you know, biotech hub in, uh, in Switzerland. And, uh and so a lot of people are commuting every day, and, um if you if you look at what the, uh what our governments and what Europe is is working on, uh, there is an

Speaker 0:
a vision that we're going to create regional centres within Europe which, um, develop around these borders and, um, in order, I think, with the vision over time, to build the the dissolution of nations can and the insistence on developing regional hub regardless of national borders is a way to build, uh, European sovereignty over the long term. So

Speaker 0:
with the the the big you know, the big vision, I don't know how it will materialise, but I can see as an investor is that there can be room for arbitrage investing in between France and Monaco or between the and this and all these people taking the train every day. In the end, they participate in making, uh, the the region more competitive. Uh, and especially if you're

Speaker 0:
in the field of real estate, you can feel the the advantage it can have for individuals to live in one side of the border where living can be cheap and then have high salary on the other one and for the same job. You know, in France, someone working in a supermarket will make less than 2000 in Switzerland 20 minutes away. It will be double for the same job for the same stress for the And I think this, um

Speaker 0:
um, this, of course, has legal implications which complicate, um, and there can be a bubble of opportunities in many areas. Uh, in Yeah, but of course, in England you have less of that problem because you're an island. So I think that's that's another thing. And a I wanna bring you in here. What do you think about this? Because you've been in Dubai. It's a very accommodative place for especially new new tech and innovation. There's a lot of what Frederick said there ring true for you?

Speaker 1:
Um I mean, I I don't think it applies to particularly to Dubai. Um, But, uh, we're seeing a lot of I mean, so just back to the point that you were saying about the family officers being a unicorn, just, uh, if you don't mind, I'll take a point backwards. Um, we family officers, As you write, there's different types. There's different shades of, but, uh, they all operate in stealth

Speaker 1:
because they're either part of a V, C or part of a private equity group. They're not gonna be out there with a big sign, say, family office to invest because they have their LinkedIn will be exploding overnight. So when you say it's at the bottom of the rung, you you're right, because that's exactly where they want to be. They build things, be networks and relationships and somebody else. And, uh, a lot of the V CS are basically a couple of family offices.

Speaker 1:
Initially, they got together and then evolved from there. There's not that many family offices. Yeah, so you're right. It is a bit of a unicorn, and it's more ephemeral. There's not that many family offices, so we can't save the sector, but we can definitely, hopefully add our specific value in that sense.

Speaker 0:
And and no, again, When we spoke prior to this, you talked a lot about family officers and philanthropy as well and sort of what's going on in that space, especially where you're speaking from now in that Southeast Asia region.

Speaker 0:
Well, thank you very much. I think that's a very important question. Uh, I also want to bring the cultural aspect to this. I said earlier on, um that, um, you know, people came from very poor circumstances to look for a living, and they made their wealth, and then now they feel they want to give back.

Speaker 0:
So, um, what they're doing and have been doing in the last few years, even without considerations of, of of, of tax benefits has been to go back to their homeland, build schools, build hospitals and bring the standard of living up in that That country

Speaker 0:
now, Singapore, uh, family as a family office centre. And I want to, uh, specify that the definition we have of family office is a separate from that of, uh is essentially separating the business risk from the family wealth. I mean, that's exactly what it is. So as a family office, which has got investments, um, they just want to

Speaker 0:
enable these, uh, families to also be able to reciprocate what they've benefited from. And we are now having, uh, rules in place to, uh, not only encourage the family officers to come here because there is a good, uh, centre for, uh, uh, being a tax efficient

Speaker 0:
environment. But more importantly, that you can give back to designated, uh uh uh uh, charities, uh, provided, you know, they are, uh, bona fide and, uh, get the tax benefit for that, uh, in terms of who gets what. I think top of the list would be held.

Speaker 0:
Education and education includes these days tech education. Very, very important. So this and and and it's no more the domain of women to look at helping others. Men are in it together, and we start the Children young.

Speaker 0:
When we when we talk to young people, we ask them also, you seem to be behind a little bit on your wealth on on on your access to funds. How do you feel when you are helping out in charities? Does that hold you back? And the answer is no. We start them young. So philanthropy is not something you talk only when you are there, you have to start building it from the beginning.

Speaker 0:
And we are very very, uh, on on top of it in Singapore, I'm very involved with that very, very involved educating people on what it is, who to go to, how to do it, all the rules and regulations attached to it so that people know they're dealing with a trusted environment. Aina We've heard a lot about education across well across the board, across founders across different technologies and also there with philanthropy. How important is that for you and to capital

Speaker 0:
for us personally? Also on the company side, this is actually very important. We are giving 10% of our profit all the companies from Toledo and also um in, um but that's a personal decision of giving uh, 10% charity. Um, we're not involved in the philanthropic, uh, activities of our clients. Um, but we know that they're giving,

Speaker 0:
but we we wouldn't, uh, mix in like, uh, you know, we do the asset management, but I always say, you know what? You what you give will come back, and we should always be on the giving side to society and all of us and everybody here, um, tuning in mhm. And we want to bring you in here. But I'm also conscious. We don't have too long left with everything that's been said and anything that you'd like to to almost finish with. Conclude, what do people really need to know about Farmers Factory and G force?

Speaker 0:
Um, well, we're on our second fund. We're raising our second fund to invest in 35 preceed. Climate tech companies at G force. Um,

Speaker 0:
uh, I'm just super excited. I've been in tech my whole career, and I'm super excited about the sector because of the tail winds. And because what? What I've seen in in in early stage technology is when a company is solving a real problem like an identifiable problem, uh, the market pulls the company

Speaker 0:
and with climate. There are so many massive problems that if you have a solution and some technology that can do it at a good price, the market pulls you. So it's our job to try and seek out those companies. Uh, it's just a great place to be perfect and similar question to you. I we're approaching at the end now. Any concluding thoughts about what's been said today and and any of the points that speakers have raised?

Speaker 1:
Well, I like Founders Factory. I think you guys do a very good job. By the way, I've come across you before. Um, yeah. Um, I think that there's there's an onus on we to produce, uh, a better wealth. Uh, you know, there's too much wealth squirrelled away in various places. Uh, we have, uh we have to do it. We have to take all the technology. See, at the moment, you have, you know, a sort of a move for text stacks. You got people very technical. You have people very financial.

Speaker 1:
And, you know, we're merging both, but that has to come with a price. And the price is that, you know, a lot of talk. But some action needs to be done as well by the family officers instead of just playing jurisdictional games or, you know, all the havens. That's fine. That works. That's the real world. But there should be a concentrated effort. And in this way, coming out of stealth mode to actually do things on a ground level. Uh, we you know, we do it. We just don't talk about it.

Speaker 0:
Well, I think that's a really good place to leave it. Louie in the studio, Thank you very much. And, uh, everyone over Zoom Thank you again for joining me. Thanks for dialling in. Thank you very much for watching and we'll see you here on the next one.