Speaker 0:
Hello and welcome to investment Trust. Edge with Me, Rory Palmer. We're here today to discuss broad alternative space, examine the investment case in Japan and look at Aberdeen Diversified Income and Growth. Well, here with me in the studio we have you and Lovett Turner, head of investment companies Research at N. We have Peter Walls, fund manager at Unicorn Asset Management, and we have James Car, head of investment company research, at quoted data

Speaker 0:
You. And let's start with the Aberdeen Trust. It's quite infrastructure heavy. How do you think that positions itself now in the space?

Speaker 1:
Yeah, it's an interesting trust, um, following a multi asset approach, uh, run by Aberdeen and and gives exposure to a range of asset classes. As you say, infrastructure assets around, uh, a quarter of the portfolio

Speaker 1:
also private equity type investments a similar percentage, and also it has exposure to areas of specialist credit like asset backed securities and a number of quirky asset classes like litigation finance, healthcare royalties and even earning stakes in alternative asset managers.

Speaker 1:
So, uh, a very, um, mixed exposure, seeking to deliver a defensive, consistent return profile, um, in a variety of market conditions and yeah, certainly the infrastructure has been an interesting area, um, largely managed through, um, in house allocations to to to Aberdeen and and extend Life, um,

Speaker 1:
funds and in different areas of the portfolio It It also uses external managers like, um 24 asset management in in Credit or or on the litigation finance. So that makes sure of in house and External and and it's had some interesting exposures in its, um,

Speaker 1:
in the infrastructure. So so some, um, ability to to deliver some capital growth from from, um, assets that are are in development stage, Um, which, in contrast to some of the other, uh, infrastructure list of vehicles, which are more focused on operational assets.

Speaker 0:
Peter, welcome to the programme and the LAKA da Silva took over as the lead, uh, manager of the trust, and it's now 50%. If I were in private assets in the trust, I think that positions itself for

Speaker 0:
for moving forward. Well, I think it's it's near a 56%. Last time I I looked, um, da Silva took over, uh, in August 2020. So it's still pretty early days, uh, to to make an assessment on, Uh, the performance performance has been pretty solid. I think it really demonstrates the benefits of broad diversification.

Speaker 0:
And as you know, um, since covid, there have been very few hiding places. Uh, in markets. Uh, in fact, the managers in the last report and accounts note that the traditional 60 equity 40 bond portfolio,

Speaker 0:
uh, in 2022 had its worst year since 1936. So I think they've done a pretty good job thus far, Uh, in terms of NAV performance, but, uh, the shares have moved out to a very big discount to net asset value, currently around 26%. Um, so

Speaker 0:
you know, the the strategy seems to be working. The question is, what can they do with that discount? And certainly they've increased their amount of share buybacks in in recent months. So I think since last September, they've probably brought back about six million

Speaker 0:
shares. You know, clearly that is a great, uh, option, uh, for the managers, because, you know, immediately you're getting an uplift on on share buyback, which is actually equivalent to more than five years worth of their target return of 6%.

Speaker 0:
And James welcome to the show to you and picking up on the discount point there. What's caused this discount? Do you think it's a case of it? Hasn't had enough time, as in, uh, the silver strategy to bed in appropriately. Yeah, it is unfortunate. It's a trust with the chequered history, really that they kept reinventing. And the new incarnation, I think, is probably a good idea. Um, but it hasn't really had enough time to bed in just as we've been hit with really poor markets in 2022. And Peter said it was a really dreadful year.

Speaker 0:
Well, not just for equities and bonds, but most asset classes. Really? So the fact that actually I think over the past 12 months he's still got a positive NAV is quite not a bad figure. But if you look, compare it to other funds that are invested in, uh, similar vehicles that, um are listed vehicles or the non listed vehicles that is holding those have underperformed him.

Speaker 0:
And I think maybe investors are just a bit worried that the NAV s are a bit stale, and maybe they they're going to fall further from here. So we've seen the listed infrastructure funds rate. They're all know now, most of them more discounts.

Speaker 0:
Um, and it may be that people just think that their N E. V s may be overstated, but I don't think to the extent of 26% I think, you know, that's probably overdone. And I know the trust has been building up cash quite a bit in recent months to look at new opportunities as they arise. What kind of opportunities do you think the manager will be looking out

Speaker 1:
for?

Speaker 1:
Um, I I I think it's always very broad. And they've been very active at reallocating the, uh, the portfolio across a range of asset classes since taking over, uh, that mandate in in, um, this approach in in 2000 and maybe I I'll just pick up on on something from James and that check of history and and and the discount and I I I think that's probably quite key to things in the investors. If you've been in there for the long term, you've been

Speaker 1:
managed by F N C. Um, you know, up in in sort of 4002, 2008, 2015 it briefly went to Black Rock for a multi asset approach. Uh, 2017. It first moved to Aberdeen, Um, performance and disappointed. And it's moved to a different strategy with Aberdeen. So I think there's been a lot of jam tomorrow, um, type stories for for investors and that really, um

Speaker 1:
um, that really means that they're probably a bit sceptical about when they'll they'll they'll trust, um, the performance is going to come through. And also, when they moved into less liquid assets, you had a bit of a AJ curve, period. So initially, returns were a little bit dull. And then they they they've started to come through with some some realisations, which has helped more recently. And

Speaker 0:
you make a good point there. Um, you know, when it was British assets, it was a fund that was trying to maintain a high dividend pay payout,

Speaker 0:
um, and and struggling to do that, uh, a similar fate, uh, came for black rock. Um, alternative income. Uh, And then there was a time when it was run as a fund of funds type product, uh, where a couple of really unfortunate investments in the portfolio, co insurance and be,

Speaker 0:
Um, so, you know, I I really hope that they're getting it right this time around. And certainly, you know, if you look at the dividend cover, um, it's nearly nearly covered in terms of current year earnings. So I think getting that balance right, is is is is going to be more achievable going forward. So those investors that have seen the whole chequered history what do you think? What kind of approach do you think they'll be looking for now? Well, I I think I think stability. Um, you know, keeping that that forward momentum on the dividend,

Speaker 0:
uh, running, um, and and not slipping up on that at any stage. Uh, and I think this portfolio notwithstanding, uh, you know, some of the concerns about valuations of of private assets, um, you know, is well placed to do that over the long term.

Speaker 0:
And? And James, it's quite an attractive yield, though, on the trust. How does that match up with the the broader UK equity income sector?

Speaker 0:
Um, it's probably sort of towards the kind of what's available, and I think that's that is quite attractive, especially because obviously the the white discount makes that even higher. Um, so there's an entry point now. It's not. Not a bad option, I think, Um, and as Peter says, it's probably quite solid. I think the worst thing that we could do now is is sort of decide that it's not working. Let's just change again. I think it needs time to bed in. As as you said, there's there's a kind of J curve thing. We're only just getting into the sort of up from that.

Speaker 0:
So I I think we have to judge it on a slightly longer time frame. I know they're trying to make returns of sort of 6% over five years on average. We we've had five years. It hasn't quite done that, but that hasn't had five years since the new strategy change again in 2020. So it's sort of maybe revisit it again in a few years time and see whether it really is working or not. I wouldn't change it. Is this the kind of market at the moment where it might outperform compared to sort of more equity

Speaker 0:
based approach? It could do if we have something dramatic happen in markets, though it said say, for instance that US interest rates were suddenly slashed and equity so you might get left behind. But is that the sort of thing you want it to be? I think it's designed to be a sort of steady eddy type fund.

Speaker 0:
Um, and it's not going to shoot the lights out when when markets are soaring and by the same token as it as we've seen last year, it shouldn't fall too much when when markets are falling out of bed

Speaker 1:
and the discount 26% is currently is, is, um, is pretty wide and probably a disappointment that the board dropped, um, a discount control mechanism to try and protect the 5%

Speaker 1:
on the face of it. Disappointing. But in fact, it it hadn't really been doing that with any vigour for the really post covid. It had been in in, uh in the teens in terms of discounts, so that wasn't really functioning and operational. So

Speaker 1:
probably more realistic to go to a more flexible approach. And interestingly, it's actually brought back £4.5 million worth of shares this year, versus less than a million last year. And I think three the year before. So in fact, it's it's dropped a firm discount control, which it wasn't operating, um, being more flexible, but actually being slightly more active as well.

Speaker 0:
Let's move on to alternatives as the sort of broad topic, and I know it is a broad topic, so I'll try and hone it in a bit. And so I want to start with the growth of alternatives in terms of investment trust assets. James, we could come to you first. What sparked that boom and and where do you see it going in the in the long term?

Speaker 0:
It's largely a yield, I think. Um, when in the wake of the financial crisis, interest rates were were crunched to virtually nothing. People are searching around for alternative ways of of, um, getting some income and the the idea that you could wrap an asset like a solar farm or a wind farm, or a road or toll road or something into a into a fund and then actually, uh, take the dividends from that,

Speaker 0:
um, sort of started to appeal, I think a bit more in the wake of the financial crisis, and it's actually, um, it was doing something the other day. So we we're just coming to the first sort of 10 year anniversaries of the launch of the first renewable energy fund. So that was probably there was some infrastructure funds before that. But I think it's the when when the new started to take off, that's when the alternatives really got going.

Speaker 0:
And then as we went through, people got more and more inventive and and all sorts of things like music rights and leasing. And, you know, there there are a wide variety of things and we could sure you can get things across his desk every now and then when people say, I've I've got a great idea for a new fund and you think maybe, but yeah, we have seen all sorts. Um, yeah, we'll come back to music royalties, but, Peter, it's sort of income, but inflation protection at the same time, right?

Speaker 0:
Um, yeah. I mean, certainly with some of the, uh, infrastructure funds you have and and and renewables you have built in, uh uh, inflation protection for some of the assets which you know clearly is attractive. I mean, it it. I think I think the growth in this area of the market is driven more by the fact that the investment company structure is ideal, um, for holding long term, less liquid or even illiquid assets. And, uh,

Speaker 0:
you know, it's it's a great product, which I think, um, you know, ought to have more popularity on a global basis because it it's been around for 100 and 50 years. It's adapted, um, and is is is really appropriate for this type of investment.

Speaker 0:
Unfortunately, in this era of, uh, higher inflation, rising interest rates, fears of recession um, you know, the attractions of those those yields are relatively less. And we have seen, um, you know, values falling. Uh, to the extent that many of them trade now discounts to net asset value and that's closed off the potential for further growth. Uh, through IP O and second as insurance.

Speaker 0:
Um, but, you know, over time, uh, you know, I would expect this area to continue to grow. I remember when I started, he said to me, Think of an idea and there's an investment company investing company that probably does it, So yeah, yeah, and you know the part that they are playing in in in the move to to to net zero. It's been, you know, really quite important.

Speaker 0:
Um, you know, you look at battery storage as an area where the investment trusts are leading the world in many respects, uh, in in providing finance for, um, for an important part of the energy picture going forward. And you And when you look at alternatives, what about discounts there? What's really happening?

Speaker 1:
Yeah, well, there's been some some big moves and And during that period of, of, of, of, of big growth and popularity around, um, 75% of issuance in recent years, um, has been, uh, for alternative strategies compared to equity. So they've been very popular, trading on premiums, and they now make up about 50% of the universe. You you look back 10 years, and and it was more 70% equity, 30%.

Speaker 1:
Um uh, alternative. You go back to the mid nineties, it was kind of 85% equities and and a small portion of alternatives. So, uh, through that issuance period, a lot of, uh, infrastructure, property, trading on premiums and really through, um 2022. Um, and and this year you've seen big D ratings largely driven by that change in the interest rate environment. So, uh, higher higher interest rates. Um,

Speaker 1:
then you're you're valuing your your cash flows over a long period based on a higher discount rate. And and, uh, does that mean you should have a lower asset valuation? Does that drop property valuations? And you've certainly been seeing that on the property side of things. Um, and so if we look at alternative as a whole, which is a very broad, um, sector, but trading around par at the end of 2021 so sort of Yeah, just over a year ago,

Speaker 1:
uh, now will be trading on average around a 20% discount. Uh, within that. The biggest moves, uh, infrastructure funds on double digit premiums. Uh, just over a year ago. Um, now, um, trading some of them on double digit discounts and and around a sort of 8 10% on average, um, property funds now on 25% discounts. Um, some private equity on on more like, 40% discounts.

Speaker 1:
So very, very big shifts. Um, some different dynamics on there, but but largely around. Yes, In a world with interest rates. How do you value your assets, and particularly those long term cash flows or growth type businesses where people are getting getting worried about valuations, particularly in that context of liquid assets, Less frequent

Speaker 1:
marks from managers? And that means that you know the share prices have to, and the investors have to guess at where the next valuation is going to come out in the next month. Quarter, six month, period. So,

Speaker 0:
James, a pretty broad sector. But can we expect some share buybacks? Pretty soon, we are seeing some already. I think, um, it's been encouraging. There are problems clearly because the nature of the board they're holding tends to be quite a liquid is not sort of thing that you can actually turn into cash very easily. So, um,

Speaker 0:
you know, the part of the beauty is, as Peter said with the structure, is that you don't have to sell things because people want to sell you just the discount just widens, and that's what's happening.

Speaker 0:
But, um,

Speaker 0:
I think

Speaker 0:
some funds have have decided that it really is getting dark now that these these there's a big disconnect between the share prices and the n E V s. They've got to do something about it. So they've got a bit of cash. They're using that to do some buy backs. I think some are actually thinking about Maybe we should sell an asset. Because if you sell an asset, you prove that the N E. V is right.

Speaker 0:
And then you can use that money to to buy back stock. So Well, I think some of some of those funds are thinking about doing that now. But we've seen some limited buybacks in things like, um, GCP, for example, buying back, I think £15 million worth, um, pat infrastructure, I think buy Buy back a few. Um, yeah, there. There are a few other funds out there that are starting to make

Speaker 0:
little, um, attempts to to do something about the discount. Is this a bit of a hangover from the large funding round we had in 2021? Partly, I think there was so much money was was put into the sector at asset value or at premiums. If you're doing the secondary stuff, um, that I think investors maybe slightly agree that they've been allowed to go to discounts, but But

Speaker 0:
there there is. The liquidity thing makes it difficult for them to to actually control what's going on. Yeah, Peter is music. Royalty is an example of that where it's quite difficult once you've bought a catalogue to then shift it off. Yeah, I know. It's not a read readily realisable asset. Um, and, you know, if you look at the discounts of the two, uh, music royalty funds today, you think Well,

Speaker 0:
you know, people probably feeling a little bit, uh uh, aggrieved by by the situation. So song that's hypnosis songs, fun trades on a 44% discount, uh, Round Hill music on a 50 plus discount. Um, uh, Round Hill have recently, uh, had another, uh, independent valuation of their, uh, catalogues, which, uh, seems to,

Speaker 0:
um seems to be broadly in line with their existing view of valuations. Uh, but as James said, uh, I think most investors would like to see some realisations to further confirm those valuations and some share buybacks. I mean, if you're on a 50% discount to NAV,

Speaker 0:
buying back your shares is an immediate 100% uplift. And, uh, you know, I I think shareholders will increasingly press, uh, for this to happen. Yeah,

Speaker 1:
and you've seen shifting attitudes and and during last year, funds probably more more used to being on discounts in the private equity area. You saw a number of those, uh, undertakes and buy back activity

Speaker 1:
Some harbour. They sold a bit of a bit of a stub portfolio to generate the cash because managing that balance sheet, as as James mentioned is is absolutely key. You you don't want to be a full set of assets at the wrong moment. So over commitment strategies, um, are something you and and then that strength of balance sheet you need to be aware of. I saw it with private equity and the G f C. But I think most funds,

Speaker 1:
um, have much more solid balance sheets have visibility to a degree on on cash flows. Um, and you've seen that shift of attitude now come across into into the wider infra infrastructure, infrastructure, space, some property funds, um, where they'd sold some assets. So they had some cash, um, doing some buybacks and and

Speaker 1:
and really investors, uh, understanding that boards, understanding that they got to look at the interest of the investors that share price. And, yes, GCP announcing a buy back a European renewables, as has been the most active, along with Sequoia in the infrastructure debt. Um, so it takes a bit of time to to shift board attitudes, but they they're they're quite quickly, um, moving to be more active in that space.

Speaker 0:
Moving on. Let's have a look at Japan so I can start with you. So casting your mind back, we had quite a weak yen last year. We had some ultra loose monetary policy, but that's changed as inflation started to tick up. What's the landscape looking like now?

Speaker 0:
It's the big unknown, I think. What's going to happen to the Japanese economy? Um, as you say, the weak The yen was very weak last year. Um, and it's mainly because the US interest rates back to interest rates again. US interest rates were were much higher than Japanese rates that Japan's um bank, the Bank of Japan, has been trying to hold down Japanese interest rates and the borrowing costs generally for companies. And they sort of they've got a what they call a yield code control policy, where they actually just, um,

Speaker 0:
it's like just quantitative easing. Basically, they they're buying bonds and trying to to keep the the, um, interest rates low. And that's not really stimulated the economy in the way that they maybe hoped it would do. Um, but the weak end has been that they've imported some inflation. So, um, they most of their fuel, for example, is comes from abroad, or the food prices have gone up because of imported inflation there.

Speaker 0:
That's starting to put pressure on Japanese households. Um, and, uh, there are tentative signs. Maybe that they're thinking this has to change and and if they do, let rates rise. And there was the big speculation was they had a new government. The Bank of Japan pointed recently,

Speaker 0:
Um, and maybe he'd said a few things that seem to maybe hint in that direction that they would let them rise. That would be a big, big shift in the global economy because the yen is quite a big currency. A lot of people borrow in yen because it's very cheap to do so. Uh, if the uh value of the yen goes up and the borrowing costs go up, that could be quite a big um

Speaker 0:
should knock to, um, economies. Generally, we may even see some banking problems. We'll see. And Peter, the weak yen. Did it flatter any types of sectors or types of companies? Well, certainly the exporters were were great beneficiaries of the weak yen over the last 18 months or so. Um, their earnings per share growth was was was very strong. Um,

Speaker 0:
you know, you look at the inflation numbers now, and inflation is running at at historically very high levels. Um, an associate of mine who was recently in in Japan was remarking how how cheap things appeared to be. Um, so you know that that that, uh, that headwind for UK based investors might be dissipating over time?

Speaker 0:
Um, but I think the real story in Japan is more about, um the the the revolution that's taking place in terms of, uh, e s G and in and in and in particular corporate governance, where, um, you know, the the mood is very much more towards restructuring towards, uh, uh, moving more towards returns on, uh, employed capital rather than, um, the the old ways of Japan. So I think

Speaker 0:
you know, the the scope for, uh, out performance by Japanese companies, uh, on a global basis is is, is quite it is quite impressive at the moment. You you, you know, you can't lose sight of the fact that 53% of the companies in Japan are trading below book value. So there's a lot of there's a lot of potential there, and, you know, in this, uh, improvement in corporate governments, sort of continuation of Abe's third arrow approach, right?

Speaker 1:
Yeah, I I think it's a really interesting development and and certainly the the macro what's what's going on, what's been mentioned. A potential shift in policy for for UK investors on interest rates would be really interesting. And although the governor governors come in and and and sort of said, we stick to stick to the knitting, Um, I think longer term changes could could come along and higher rates, um, stronger currency for a UK investor, very beneficial,

Speaker 1:
but yes, definitely on the governance side. And I think there's been some interesting funds launched which are trying to be beneficiaries of that increased shareholder focus. So yes, no longer big conglomerates with strange cross holdings in other listed businesses selling off some of those types of holdings, potentially returning capital to investors for those companies sitting with huge cash balances.

Speaker 1:
Um, and and yes, we've seen a number of Well, you've seen Elliott. The the big activists come in to try and do that sort of thing. Um, and in the listed space, um, funds like a B I Japan, Um, and through a V I global the the the the global mandate Um, being active and trying to,

Speaker 1:
um, constructively engage with with Japanese companies because I think we've we've seen, historically, 5, 10, 15 years ago that that being very aggressive isn't really a way that works but a modified activism through through, um through, uh, gentler engagement. Certainly seems to be having some results and decent returns.

Speaker 0:
I think that's a good point. And, James, with those changes in corporate governance, there's also been a lot more protectionism legislation coming up soon, right?

Speaker 0:
There are. So actually, the the API guys are slightly worried, and they actually made a statement the other day because, um, there's been,

Speaker 0:
uh, some sort of watering down of anti poison pill measures. So things that, um, companies can put in place to try and stop SARS taking over.

Speaker 0:
Uh, the feeling was that that all of those things will be swept away. But the the the people in the Japanese government have been sort of backtracking backsliding a bit on that, um, and there there's been quite a strong push back against that. So, um, we'll have We'll have to wait and see which way the debate goes. But, um, I think, um, generally the the the the direction travels in the right direction.

Speaker 0:
Uh, James, I it's the broader reopening trade in Asia in general. How's Japan really positioned to benefit from that?

Speaker 0:
Um, quite well, really. Because China is its biggest trading partner by some distance. So, um, the whole time that China was in sort of lockdown with covid, um, that did restrict exports for a number of companies. Um, So with that being lifted, um, things do look a bit rosier for for all those companies, and they are hoping to to see more inbound tourism. So for a long time, you weren't allowed to enter Japan if you weren't actually a resident,

Speaker 0:
and actually for some of the Japanese managers that are based there, they were saying there's a huge advantage for them because they were able to go and see Japanese companies, and the most Western asset managers weren't able to. But anyway, that's been lifted now, And, uh, the tourism was was starting to be a big thing pre-covid. And they're hoping that it's gonna bounce back quite quickly. Um, so we'll wait and see what happens with that, but, um, Chinese tourists again, uh, that was another big, big of that. It wasn't just Westerners. It was Chinese people, too.

Speaker 0:
And they they buy all sorts of things, and they seem to sort of love the Japanese culture. And, Peter, when you look at Japan, what investment trusts really jump out to you? Well, the large cap specialists that I like, um uh, Schroeder Japan. Uh, Bailey Gifford, Japan, Obviously with a bit of more of a growth bias to it. Uh, in the smaller companies, uh, we hold a V i Japan opportunity. Um, so, you know, there are plenty of good quality funds out there,

Speaker 0:
um, with with good, solid, long term track record, So, yeah, the investment trust do a good job in the area and looking at equities quite broadly and What's looking good? What's looking cheap? Is it large cup? Is it small cup?

Speaker 1:
Well, I'm not sure on the the the exact figures there, but certainly as the market as a whole, Um, you've got Japan trading on pretty cheap valuations around a 13 times PE.

Speaker 1:
Um, you compare that to MS. C I world around 18 times the US 21 I think and and it is marginally more expensive than the UK on on 12 or so. Um, but, um a a cheap market. And I think a really interesting one from an investment point of view, because it it it is a huge opportunity. And

Speaker 1:
and, uh, certainly the the Japanese small caps it's It's just fascinating meeting meeting the managers of those companies because they'll they'll, um, those those funds, because they'll they'll name companies that you've you've probably never heard of, but a great growth opportunities and often are very undercovered, actually, even in in the local markets. So you go by going down the market cap spectrum, you can pick up some really interesting opportunities and

Speaker 1:
and certainly the likes of the Bailey Gifford Nippon and the the Japanese, um, smaller company mandate as well. They, they they try and look for growth opportunities in that area. And and similar. You've got large cap opportunities in

Speaker 1:
in the the baby Gifford, the um, also a Fidelity fund, which is a bit more balanced in its approach of of of growth. Um, but but a pragmatic approach to value as well.

Speaker 0:
I think Jones playing Devil's advocate slightly. I think investors will have heard this before for a long time that Japan, you know, this is it. This is the time for opportunities. What's different? Perhaps this time I think there's been a sort of long slow.

Speaker 0:
It's a bit like turning on a super tanker that that there is a sort of slowly moving in the right direction. Um, and it's interesting that one of the funds that hasn't been mentioned at JP. Morgan, Japan a big thing about their investment thesis is that there are the big old, stale Japanese companies, and they're gonna be old and stale, probably for a long time. And maybe we won't making a lot of a lot of money apart from the corporate governance side.

Speaker 0:
But there are also new dynamic, um, fast growing companies doing things like robotics. And, um, there's the There's a quite a big, um disconnect. And I think people's obsession with Japan that you think it's sort of this sort of modern, uh, country, but actually in in lots of ways, it's quite backward. The things like, um ecommerce and the use of, um, uh, cards to pay for things they're still using quite a lot of cash

Speaker 0:
that that is all slowly changing. Um, attitudes change. They have to adapt to the shrinking workforce that they've got. They've got to be inventive about things like that. It's all happening under the, um uh, sort of under the surface,

Speaker 0:
and I think it is going to start to to show up good. And Peter, I'm conscious of time. But have you got any sort of final thoughts on on anything that we've covered today? Yeah, I think for Japan we're seeing the dismantling of the rigorous, rigid old structures. Much more focus on profitability. More focus on E. S G uh, more adoption of modern technology. As James said, So

Speaker 0:
you know it. It is definitely moving in the right direction. And from a low valuation point, uh, does offer some some good relative value. And you in the same to you, I'll offer you a final thought. Could be on Japan. Could be on anything

Speaker 1:
else. Yeah, I think maybe on the alternative side of things. And I I do, uh, despite some weakness of late, think that's got many interesting investment opportunities. Um, both on the asset value performance side of things. And,

Speaker 1:
uh, and potential discount narrowing over time. And although we've got a change in rate environment, I think, uh, still, there's some quality cash flows within there that that people at the moment, uh, both cash flows and assets that people are are under pricing.

Speaker 0:
Well, thank you, all of you.

Speaker 0:
That's all we've got time for. I would like to thank my guest, James, Peter and Ewan. And we'll see you here on the next one here on Asset TV.