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Good morning. I'm Cherry Reynard, your host for upfront, where we bring you the latest insights on Bailey Giffords UK funds. Today, I'll be speaking with investment manager Catherine Davidson, and afterwards there'll be an opportunity to ask Catherine your questions. So do send them in by clicking on the Ask a question tab on the right hand side of your screen.

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We also have investment manager Stephen Pace introducing, caring one of the largest luxury goods conglomerates in the world. But first I'm going to ask Bailey Giffords some of your burning questions. Welcome to upfront.

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So welcome back, Megan. Uh, for those who missed our first episode, Megan is a client manager in the UK. Intermediaries team at Bailey Gifford and has been with the firm for seven years. So, Megan, what's on everyone's minds right now? Hi. First of all, good morning. Um, So when we aired our last episode in July, there was a lot of sentiment in the market. We saw a really strong year to take bones, and with that, the NASDAQ Valley actually had the strongest first half of the year in over 40 years.

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But then August came. And with that market sentiment soured, and so far this month, we've saw $3 trillion wiped off of global stock markets. So not great, not great. So why do you think that is? Why does that happen? A few things. So we saw more gloomy economic data come out of China. We saw more of that come out yesterday,

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and there's also been that realisation that interest rates are going to be higher in developed markets for some time longer. We saw that last week at the Jackson home meeting with central bankers. It very much looks like everyone's in agreement that it's going to take longer for the Fed to get their 2% target. And with that, there's also a growing debate of where the natural level of interest settles. And that's her. That's referred to as our star. And that's the level that neither suppresses nor stimulates growth

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OK, and any anything positive to come out of the summer months. Yes, there's always a positive, so it's not been a completely cruel summer, and thankfully we've avoided recession both in the UK and in the US. And there's been a lot of chat this summer about a particular group of people helping to pop up the US economy.

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OK, have you have heard of AICs? But have you heard of Swift Anomic? No, I have not heard. Tell me about that. OK, so this is in relation to Taylor Swift and the impact her tours have in the US economy. I can see your eyes and I can see the eyes rolling behind the screen. But bear with me. This just isn't any tour. This is a monster tour. So it's estimated that the tour will inject 4.6 billion back in the US

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economy this summer alone and for context. That's more than the GDP of 50 countries combined so massive. And what that looks like in principle is that each average concertgoer is spending around $1300 straight back into US economies on travel, fashion, eating, drinking. It's had a huge impact, and so much so actually that even the Fed has acknowledged it. Um so yeah, quite something.

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And so that's really showing that consumer spending is really resilient, especially among women, as we continue to prioritise spending and experiences and hospitality, and it will be super interesting to see if Swift has got a transatlantic effect next year, OK? And presumably you have your tickets for research purposes. Obviously. Um

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so let's go back to your point about it being the worst month for stock markets. Um, it sounds like the volatility we discussed last time we met, um, is still very much a play. I mean, how are clients responding to that? Yeah, certainly. Um, from speaking to my clients and also for my colleagues, I know that there's still a lot of caution and weediness in the market, and we're seeing that also in numbers coming through just now as well. So we flows and

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you are down in 38% from Q one. They're considerably down for many years, and we're also seeing increased outflows. And that does make sense. We know that clients were taking money out of their portfolios, especially if they are mortgaging at higher rates. They're looking to put down payments. Um, So the biggest question that me and my colleagues are getting just now is why would I invest? Why wouldn't I just stay in cash or go into traditionally safer assets like guilt?

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OK, and And what are you saying? I mean Why wouldn't they do that? Well, I think for some clients it

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worthwhile that we're honest. And that will probably make sense for some clients. And, you know, if you've got a client who can't handle volatility, who needs that short term access to cash? That's very much an advisor, a wealth manager's job to have those conversations with your clients. And I'm sure for some it will make sense. But it will come as no surprise that we think that if you're willing to, you know, embrace some risk at the moment and you're aligned long term. There's certainly lots of opportunities, both in equities and in fixed income.

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OK, let's take fixed income first. I mean, Bonds had a torrid time in 2022. Um, but as I understand it, be Gifford think says a better case for them today. Um, is is that right? I mean, so we we're in periods of uncertainty just now. Clients are certainly asking us more about macro and outlook and our clients that we don't do that In the equity side, there are teams that really get to do that, and they do that really thoughtfully. And our fixed income team and our multi asset team

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in particular, I would highlight the work our multi asset growth team do so. They analyse a full range of asset classes over a decade, and they're measuring to see how they think they'll perform over cash. They do that on a six monthly basis, and that impacts our asset allocation. And they've just recently done that. And there's two particular areas they're excited in.

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So the first would be structured finance. And that's like a a product that pays a um, it's like a bond that is a floating rate, so can be really useful with higher periods of inflation. And the second would be emerging market debt, particularly in Latin American countries, as it a bit for their own and their policy. OK, that's interesting. So I mean, what, what do they say to the view that,

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you know, emerging market countries tend to be more vulnerable to kind of the gloomier sentiment you were mentioning earlier? Yeah, so I think there's a bit of myth busting that has to go on there, and emerging markets in general have had much more Orthodox interest rate policies and compared to developed markets during the pandemic that some are over expanded. And the reason for that is that EM economies don't

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have the luxury to wait and see if inflation is going to be to you. As soon as they get an inkling, they start to raise rates and quite rapidly. And we've saw that with the likes of Brazil. They've done that successfully. Inflation is now two thirds from where it was at its peak, and the team think that Brazil and Chile will probably start cutting rates soon, joining the likes of Hungary and Vietnam who have already done so.

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Um, so there's still lots of room to go there. They think yields just now are sitting at 9%. They were historically 6%. And then, on top of that, there's also the currency appreciation element. And they're excited about currencies, the Colombian peso, Mexican peso and also the Brazilian.

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OK, great. Um, so that's a fixed income side. What about equities?

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Yeah,

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I think it would be a bad day if we were sitting here and we weren't excited about equities anymore, So we've just came out of another round of earnings results and some really positive news. The big one that everyone is talking about is NVIDIA um, massive demand for their GP US. We discussed that last episode in quite detail about the investment case there. So if any clients wanting to read more about that or hear more about that, I would reference last episode.

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But we're really seeing that extraordinary demand come through, especially our data centres for, um, the likes of Amazon meta all rely on those chips. And but aside from the video, we're also seeing really positive numbers come through from some of the companies that have been more beaten up. Post pandemic. So the likes of Shopify, the Canadian E-commerce company, they've cut head count and they've sold off the logistics business. They're growing a take, and the platform is really strong,

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and another one with a similar name would be Spotify and the streaming music platform continued growth. They're moving into podcasts as well, which is great. And, you know, they're they're continuing to get new users around 500 million users now, um so both showing really good operational strength. Um, and it's not all that racy growth, I think Another one I'd highlight just to show the different flavours of growth would be Ryanair.

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Um, so travel is another area like those experiences and, um, entertainment sectors. Travel is holding up really well. Ryanair are now operating at higher capacity pre pandemic and really importantly, they're investing counter cyclically. Um, so we've just put an order in for 300 new planes that will hold more passengers, be more fuel efficient and quieter, which is great if you struggle to sleep on their planes. OK, great.

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Um, and just before you go, Megan, there's been a lot of noise in the media about the private markets. I wonder if you can just talk us through that.

Speaker 0:
Yeah. There's been a lot of chat the last week or so. If the you know the IP O market is going to come back to life, for example, um, it has died off over the last year or two as a result of those higher rates, and that increases the cost for companies to finance. So we saw a pull back in that it's important to note that we can only hold private companies our investment trust structures. Um, and a nice anecdote that highlights that change in the market would be if you look at the Scottish mortgage portfolio.

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So in 2021 14 private companies and Scottish Mortgage went through IP O to list 2022 there was none this year. So far. There's just one, but that could all be about to change. And that's because Soft Bank have announced that arm is about to list that we don't hold arm anymore. Previous, and we have held it in Scottish mortgage for long term holders. But the reason we're talking about it is because it would be the biggest IP O since 2021

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and very much the market and other companies will be waiting to see how that's taken. Um, and that can happen any time in the next month. So something to watch. But in the shorter term, another thing to look out for is that typically, if companies are looking to list in the latter half of the year, they have to do it around Labour Day. And that's next Monday. So

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you know, in the next few weeks, if you see an increase in failings, that's probably a good appetite. Since check for with IP O back, it's going to go the rest of the year. Brilliant. OK, it sounds like it could be a really exciting few months ahead. You've got central bank decisions and a potential revival in the IP O market. So that's great. Thank you so much, Megan, for joining us today.

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And for those watching live, if you have any questions, our Q and a function is on the right hand side of the screen, which you can access by clicking the Ask a question tab.

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Now, as part of each programme, we'll be featuring an in depth look at some of the transformational companies Bailey Gifford invests in.

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Today we're learning about caring whose goal is to support its brands to achieve their artistic and financial potential in a creative and sustainable way.

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Luxury brands aim to grow desire faster than demand

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and demand faster than supply.

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We don't really need their products, but they are the ultimate social signalling tool.

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They tap into aspiration into emotion and capture the imagination.

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Many of the world's most prestigious brands are parts of conglomerates, like hearing a company we've been invested in since 2008. It actually began as a timber trading business and only made its way into luxury in 1999 when it rescued Gucci from near bankruptcy.

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Since then, it has grown to include brands like Bouchon, Balenciaga and San Laurent.

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Part of Caring's success has been how it applies a similar formula to each of its brands.

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It hires a bold creative director and combines them with a talented CEO and a great merchandizing team, something which has consistently led their brands to stand out from the competition. And you can see this in how Gucci and Balenciaga have defined the luxury street wear trend,

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leading them to be ranked the top two brands and the hottest brands index in recent years,

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Hearing on some of the most attractive brands in the world. That exhibit returns to scale.

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The bigger they get, the more powerful they become.

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The biggest brands today can almost dictate what we buy, and their scale can be leveraged across marketing, prime real estate and talent.

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Gucci is going through a transition as a new designer comes on board. However, it has long been the jewel in caring's crown.

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It shows its other brands and those it will acquire in the future. What is possible when it comes to growth and profitability

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with any long term investment. It's important to trust the people running the business, like in many of our investments. This is a family controlled company. The Pino family has steered caring to be valued at more than €60 billion and is managing the business to be fit for the future, something which is clear in how it ranks among the leaders in sustainable materials design.

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We've already held caring for 15 years because companies like caring, capture generations of growth with pricing power and high margins and yet have minimal competitive threats. This makes it a classic compounder, affording us the luxury of time to understand the company and its management and the other aspects that make this such a unique asset.

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Great. So caring looks well set to create a more sustainable luxury goods market for by 2025 and continue to grow its brands for years to come.

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Now to move on. We're joined by Catherine Davidson for a fund update.

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So welcome, Catherine. Morning, Jerry. Um, now you're an investment manager in the firm and a co manager on the sustainable growth Fund. Uh, before joining Bailey Gifford, you spent your investment career on the global equity team at Schroder, I wonder if we can start with a brief overview of the sustainable growth strategy. Yes, it is, um, follows on nicely from caring. Actually, it's It's almost like we designed it like that.

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Um, so yes, the sustainable growth strategy. We're really trying to do what it says on the tin investing companies that are sustainable in both senses of the word. So firstly, delivering enduring growth over a long time period and also creating value for society either through their products or their practises. So we like to say you know what they do or how they do it.

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Um, And in terms of the key features, uh, this is a 60 stock ish, um, well diversified portfolio with a range of different growth drivers. Um, it's focused on resilience at the stock level and versus other BG strategies, or maybe more focusing on the duration rather than the pace of growth.

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OK, and you mentioned those two connected investment aims. So growth and sustainability is that Was that the, um, the reason behind the group the funds Name change? Yes. So the, um the name change back in January. It's a It's a bit of a non event, really. It was more a reflection of what we were already doing and just making sure that that was clear to clients. And, um, we'll probably spend some time in the next 20 minutes talking about what's changed. But, um, I really want to make clear as well that there's a lot of continuity. So this was always a sustainable strategy.

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Um, it was always, you know, best ideas globally, diversified, et cetera. So things that have changed are in three main areas. Firstly, the creation of a central desk. So myself and Toby Ross, my co manager, heading that up, um, a focus on resilience and then a higher bar for sustainability.

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OK, and, uh, can I ask, what brought you to Bailey Gifford? And you know, whether you've drawn any initial impressions of the differences between Bailey Gifford and Schroders? Yeah, sure. So, as you mentioned, I'd been at traders my entire career. So I've done about 15 years there from the graduate scheme. And then I joined, uh, BG last September. So coming up on my one year anniversary, um,

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and I wasn't really looking to move. You know, I'd had a had a great run at Schroders. I'd been working on the global team and that culminated in the last five years there running or designing, launching and then managing their flagship sustainable fund. So something I was very proud of, you know? Very. Um, Yeah. It's my baby. Really?

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Um, so I wasn't looking to move. And then well, certainly not to Scotland. Um, and, uh, And then around spring last year, I got this random LinkedIn message from a guy I'd never met before. Um, unfortunately, it was Toby. Otherwise, this would be a very weird story. Um, and he said he was down in London pitching to a client. And would I be up for getting a coffee discussing an opportunity?

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Um, turned out, actually, that my son was pitching against Toby that day. Um, and the Schroders Fund actually won it, so that was a very good initial test of character for him. Uh, but yeah, we went and had the coffee. We got on really well. I mean, um,

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I hope he's not watching because he'll get a big head, but, you know, he he's a He's a smart guy. He's super excited. His enthusiasm is contagious. Um, and we chatted back and forth over a few months. Um, and so we found that we agreed on a lot of important things, but not everything, and that we'd make a pretty good team.

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And then through that process, the more I got to know about BG. The more interested I was in it as an organisation. So I think the thing that that really hooked me was when Toby said, there's an investigative journalist on the payroll here. I just thought that that's so cool that's so different to what else other people in the industry do, and then combine that with all the academic partnerships, work with NGO S and the really close ties they have with companies. I just thought this is a place where I can

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I can do really good research and really good sustainable investing. So it's a chance to do what I love and do it again with the benefit of hindsight with a really well resourced team. Um, and the weather is not as bad as people said it would be. I'm glad you've acclimatised. That's good. Um, I wonder if you could talk about a stock that sort of showcases your style as a manager, and it's kind of a reflection of the type of companies you like to invest in.

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This feels a bit pretentious talking about your style as a manager. But, um, I think over my career I found that I gravitate to

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sort of compounding type names. So quality growth stocks, so not necessarily the really high octane stuff. Um, but the names that just kind of grind out performance. And I really think the market's very poor at valuing that because everyone just assumes mean reversion far too quickly for those kind of companies, Um, and also companies that have strength in in non financial areas. They think like their culture or their relationship with stakeholders, because if you can't put it in a model, a lot of people ignore it.

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So one example, um, would be spy sarco. I like to call it the best company you've never heard of. I hope you've never heard of it. Otherwise, that spoils this segment. Um, so it's a UK. Midcap steam engineering company, so it's fantastically esoteric, but it makes these products that are really mission critical but quite low priced. Um, and they help their customers save a lot of energy. Um, water, electricity emissions, et cetera. Um,

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and it's not just about the products, though. It's not. Just as I said, it's not just what they do, it's how they do it. It's a business that really is run with a long term mindset, um, and is focused on delivering value for the customers. So the whole model works by these highly trained sales engineers going out kind of surveying the plants and proposing projects that will work for their customers and that enables them to deliver this really strong

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during growth profile over time. So again, as I said, it's not. It's not stellar. It's, you know, it's about duration. So 7% top line, um, compound annual growth rate, but over 50 plus years, and they've never made a loss since listing in in the 19 eighties. Um, and the, you know, sort of people look at it and the pushback is generally ill, but it's quite expensive, but it's only expensive on next year's multiple, and that's what it's saying about a market not valuing

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these kind of steady growth businesses and the non financial strength. So it's actually, uh, delivered returns of of 10 times the MS C I or countries world, uh, since over its listed history. So just to show that the COMPOUNDERS can deliver good returns for clients as well? Yeah, absolutely. Um And how has your approach influenced the portfolio? I mean, have there been any notable changes since you joined?

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Yeah. So, actually, um, in the last 12 months, uh, clients will see that we've turned over about a third of the portfolio. Um, firstly, that is that is a one off. That is not gonna be the ongoing rate. We'd expect it to normalise down to sort of 10 20%. Um, it's been more about the changes I mentioned earlier. So the central desk taking ownership of the portfolio. And I can't claim credit credit for all of the new ideas that are in there. Unfortunately,

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um, so most of the sales have been, uh, justified by either sustainability or resilience grounds on the sustainability side. As I said, we're sort of we've got a more, uh, we've got a higher bar for sustainability going forward. We've been reassessing all of the names. Um and moving on from names where either we weren't convinced that they were genuinely addressing challenges to people, planet or prosperity,

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Um, or stocks where it just isn't that material. So they could be, you know, sort of doing good things in their CS R programmes. But if there's not that virtuous circle where it feeds back to the investment case, then we we don't really want to own it because, you know, this is this is not an impact fund we're not. This is not a philanthropic exercise. We have a financial objective. Um, and we only want to own companies where the sustainable credentials make it a better business.

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So example on that side might be ST James's Place, um, which we moved on from in January because we just weren't convinced that that business was was solving any particular problems or or creating a huge amount of value for its customers. And that's played out unexpectedly quickly. Um, with the shares down 20 odd percent in July as they announced they were cutting fees for new consumer protection regulations. Um, and on the resilience side, it seems fairly straightforward. It's moving on from some of the higher octane, higher risk names.

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Um, especially those with more stretched balance sheets, Um, or sort of more binary outcomes. So, um,

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soft bank, which was mentioned earlier, is, um was a name that was in the portfolio when I arrived. To be honest, it's become so large and so complex that I find it hard to have an edge on it. And it's also one of the top 10 most indebted companies in the world. So, um, I we chose to move on from that. And, um I mean, some of the stuff we've been buying is a bit less sexy. Optically,

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um, things like plastic pipes, steam systems, health insurance, et cetera. But these are all companies that we believe can deliver 10% growth for 10 years and good returns for our clients, OK,

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and any when you joined any stocks that you weren't particularly taken with or vice versa. You know, uh, in the interest of healthy debate, Toby. Yes, we did want to demonstrate. We don't agree on everything. Um, so Toby's got a thing for these sort of weird middle man companies. Like, um, the air conditioning distributor names H. Um, sorry. What, and and Also, there's a chemical distributor in their IM. CD took me a while to get my my head around those and understand their value, their position in the value chain.

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Um and then there's certainly been I mean, Toby's much more diplomatic, open minded and diplomatic than me.

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Um, but there's definitely been some of the names that I've brought forward that he's been less, um, you know, naturally comfortable with. I would say the the main one has been United Health, which is a big US health insurer. Um HMO, they call them, um, and it's very much not a Bailey Gifford stock like it's a massive mega cap company. It's operating in a highly regulated, not that high growth industry. It's an incredibly complicated, messy beast, Um,

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but there in lies the opportunity. As far as I'm concerned, I think it's it can deliver that kind of compounding growth because it sits. It plays an incredibly valuable, valuable role in a quite dysfunctional health care system, um, in ensuring access to affordable care. Um, so I spent a long time sort of talking to the team about how the US health care system works. The role of HM OS The move towards value based care, et cetera. Um and the final step was to get Toby to speak to the company. Um and then we started a position in June.

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Ok, great. Great. Thank you, Catherine, for all that. Um, now, to answer the questions that have been coming in over the programme.

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First question, uh, given what 2022 did to portfolios, how resilient did the do you feel the portfolio is to future shocks?

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Um, yeah, well, I think we're all to touch wood. I can't find any. Um, we're all hoping we won't get a repeat of 2022. But as I've discussed, that's 11 of the things that we've really tried to focus on in the last 12 months is increasing the resilience at the individual company level. And also now we have a central desk taking a more holistic view of the whole portfolio and trying to make sure that we don't

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have high interest stock correlations, unintended big bets on things. So I really believe that the the downside capture of of this portfolio should be better than it was in 2022. If we were God forbid, to experience a similar similar event. Um,

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probably stop talking now and leave time for more questions. Um, another one. How important is engagement and can you give an example? Yes, I didn't I didn't talk about that. But whenever you've got a sustainable strategy, engagement is a huge part of how we sort of influence companies and, um, build relationships over time. And it's actually one of the really nice things about being a BG is the fact that you've built those really long term really strong, trusted relationships with companies means that you can

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you can you can be a trusted partner. But you can also sort of push back on things. And I think we've got a lot more room to influence than than perhaps some other asset managers have because of that. So, one example, Um, one of the earliest examples when I arrived was, uh, Starbucks, which was the first name that we bought as a team in the fund. And, um, I can I can see you looking sceptical because, like, it's not an obvious holding for a sustainable strategy. And I I had the same initial thought as like

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I mean I need coffee, But I know I wouldn't say that This is solving a global challenge particularly, um, but Starbucks is in there as a kind of business practises case rather than its its products. Not impactful. But the bit that I didn't realise was they do this really interesting work with coffee farmers. So the biggest coffee buyer in the world, Um, and they've done a huge amount of grassroots work setting, um, industry standards basically helping remove child labour from the supply chains, ensuring price stability. Um, and that's all quite underappreciated.

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But that's not what anyone thinks of when you say Starbucks and especially, um, in the last 12 months, the big issues publicly have been around unionisation and sort of union busting activity in the US stores. Um, so we knew that that was something we needed to understand better before we started a position. So Toby went out to the capital markets, stay in October last year, met a whole bunch of executives and also board members, which is really important.

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Um got their perspective on that issue, and I think the reassuring thing for us was that they didn't try to brush it off. They're like Yeah, we know that we didn't do a great job of managing through that period. And we're disappointed that so many people have felt the need to unionise. Um, and I don't think we've handled that very well. So they gave us, you know, some areas where they were working on it, some KPIS to monitor them on.

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Um, and we and many other shareholders voted in favour of a shareholder resolution at their recent a GM in favour of having a formal review of that kind of unionisation process. So that will be something to watch as well. OK, it's encouraging when companies make their mistakes, isn't it? Um, so next question. How do you think about valuation? As in Are you trying to achieve a certain growth hurdle?

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Yeah. So I, I say there's two slightly different questions there. So in terms of the growth hurdle, we're looking for, um, an average of 10% growth annually for 10 years, so that gives you roughly 2.5 times over a 10 year time horizon. Um, but we're we're looking for companies where that isn't already in the price. Which brings us to the valuation piece because I think, especially when you're looking at in the sort of sustainable space. You spend a lot of time thinking about whether something is a good company,

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and then you have to think about whether it's a good investment and it needs to be a very different decision. So we have, you know, a long wish list of companies good companies that we'd like to buy. But we're only going to put our clients money in them when the valuation is attractive and we can see reasonable return prospects. This is another thing we've done in the last 12 months is bring a little bit more consistency around the valuation profile and and making sure that we're disciplined there.

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OK, um, next one, from the fact sheet, I think one of the biggest holdings is Work Day. What is that? Yeah, it's, um, it's one. It's a massive company now, actually, but it's it's not one that you'd come across that much as sort of a retail investor, I guess. So I've come across it because it's an enterprise, um, software as a service business, so it mostly does HR software, so we use it at Bailey Gifford for you know, booking our holidays, organising our appraisals,

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et cetera. And they compete with the likes of Oracle. And it's, um, it's a fantastic investment proposition because it's taking share from those legacy guys hand over fist. It's it's cloud native. It's incredibly disruptive and innovative. Um, and this is another sort of business practises case from a sustainability point of view that they're not just sort of providing these products, but they're leveraging their very powerful positions. So they've got relationships with, you know, huge number of of massive Corporates now,

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um, and they sort of see part of their role is in helping those companies solve challenges around human capital management, in particular in diversity and inclusion. So things like helping them assess their their pay, equality and stuff like that, um, and spreading best practise between their customers. And actually, the BG HR team went out to see them in San Francisco last year to discuss our kind of DN I challenges and our our strategies for addressing those. OK, interesting.

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Um, and final question. And then I can let you go. Um, how does the Sustainable Growth Fund compare to other Bailey Gifford global funds and where would I put it in a portfolio? Well, obviously you'd put it heart and centre of the portfolio.

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Um, but with jokes aside, it is sort of the risk profile, the diversification, the number of names it's designed to be suitable for a core allocation. Um, in terms of where it sits in the line up, the one we most frequently get asked about is positive change a fantastic system strategy, very happy to benefit from the halo effect there. But it's it's actually quite different in terms of what we're trying to do. So the the main difference is that this is a single financial objective strategy, so we only have a performance goal.

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Um, whereas PC F, um is a dual objective, So they've got an impact goal and an investment goal. So it sort of depends where you want to be on that spectrum sort of impact, sustainable, um, versus some of the other You know,

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other mainstream funds at Bailey Gifford and I would say that we are, you know, higher bar for sustainability. It's not just kind of exclusions or do no harm based. It's really looking for solutions, providers, and so sort of sitting between those two. and also in terms of the risk profile, you know, it's we are a 60 name portfolio versus PC F at 30 You know, slightly slightly less spicy. Um, position. OK, great. We there. Thank you so much, Catherine, for all those insights today

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and thank you all for joining us, uh, to find out more about the topics we've discussed on the programme, please do go to the website. Bailey Gifford dot com. The UK intermediaries team are here to help, so get in touch. If you have any questions until next time Goodbye.